# 18 Kids and Counting becomes 19 Kids and Counting **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 2, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-kids-and-counting-becomes-19-kids-and-counting/508576 "2009-09-02T00:30:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-kids-and-counting-becomes-19-kids-and-counting/508576/41 "2009-09-02T21:51:00Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > …And I don’t mean that facetiously. Standard practice is that older siblings do a lot of the minding of the younger sibs. Part of your duties are to look after the young snots. I don’t think many of the kids will end up trying to sire a “mega-family” and a few of the older daughters are probally going to end up not wanting to have any children of their own. It’s really morbid and I certainly don’t wish them harm, but what happens if Jim-Bob or Michelle die? The oldest siblings will be middle-aged before they’re done raising their younger siblings. Granted every this is an issue for every family, but not on the scale it is with the Duggars. [QUOTE=gigi] I know that’s technically what they are but I haven’t them talk that way about themselves, or be particularly militant in that respect. I haven’t watched them religiously (heh) though. [/QUOTE] Keep in mind that despite never watching TV themselves (except the **Andy Griffith Show** DVDs) the Duggers are _very_ media savvy. All “reality” shows are heavily edited; **18 Kids** is no exception. The Duggars aren’t going to let negative material air. Sure the TLC could to an “expose” if they really wanted to, but then the Duggars aren’t going to do any more specials (at least for them). ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-kids-and-counting-becomes-19-kids-and-counting/508576/42 "2009-09-02T23:20:53Z")
I read an interview with the husband who says something like: We did try birth control but then we had a miscarriage, so we decided to let God decide how many children we have. Two things. First-- birth control? You’re doing it wrong. Second-- Didn’t God give you free will? I don’t think he’s paying any attention to how many kids you have. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-kids-and-counting-becomes-19-kids-and-counting/508576/43 "2009-09-02T23:27:25Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > I read an interview with the husband who says something like: We did try birth control but then we had a miscarriage, so we decided to let God decide how many children we have. > > Two things. First-- birth control? You’re doing it wrong. Second-- Didn’t God give you free will? I don’t think he’s paying any attention to how many kids you have. Yeah, I think it was something like the wife was on the pill and she got pregnant anyway and miscarried and they thought that because of that being on the BCP was a selfish choice. ---
**Author:** ![Iggins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Iggins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggins)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-kids-and-counting-becomes-19-kids-and-counting/508576/44 "2009-09-02T23:31:38Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > One of the most touching eps of the show was when her 12, 10, 9, 8, 6, and 5 year olds made that [statue of her](http://www.photoseek.com/99TURC-03-26_Cybele_Ionian-Artemis_Roman-Diana.jpg)in ceramics. Well played! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2009, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-kids-and-counting-becomes-19-kids-and-counting/508576/45 "2009-09-03T00:13:33Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > And am I a terrible person for wondering if they’ll suddenly believe in birth control after having a DS baby? She’s already 42, how much longer will they be able to tempt faith? One Dawn Brooke holds the record for oldest natural conception at the age of 59… so perhaps another 17 years, potentially. That’s what, another 7 or 8 kids, unless she has twins or other multiples? And most children born to older mothers do NOT have babies with Down’s. There is an increased _risk_, it’s not a certainty. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2009, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-kids-and-counting-becomes-19-kids-and-counting/508576/46 "2009-09-03T00:40:00Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > And most children born to older mothers do NOT have babies with Down’s. There is an increased _risk_, it’s not a certainty. Per [this site](http://www.nichd.nih.gov/publications/pubs/downsyndrome.cfm), Michelle’s chances are about 1 in 35 (since she’ll actually be in her 44th year when the child is born). In two years it’ll increase to 1 in 25 and by age 49 it increases to 1 in 12. (On average DS babies are about 1 in 750 births.) ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-kids-and-counting-becomes-19-kids-and-counting/508576/47 "2009-09-03T00:45:00Z")
[hijack]1 in 60 is less than a 2% chance the kid will be born with Down Syndrome. Still high odds that the kid won’t have it. Not to mention, per the link that I provided, that the vast majority of kids born with DS are from women under 35. Because, frankly, a whole lot more younger women are having kids than older women like Michelle.[/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-kids-and-counting-becomes-19-kids-and-counting/508576/48 "2009-09-03T02:09:03Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > [hijack]1 in 60 is less than a 2% chance the kid will be born with Down Syndrome. Still high odds that the kid won’t have it. > > Not to mention, per the link that I provided, that the vast majority of kids born with DS are from women under 35. Because, frankly, a whole lot more younger women are having kids than older women like Michelle.[/hijack] I haven’t been able to google anything, but something I’ve wondered is what other factors will reduce the odds of a mother having a DS baby. When Sarah Palin’s DS son was a big news item I started a thread asking about DS in history. There was a time not very long ago (a century if that), before reliable pharmaceutical birth control and when large families and farms were the norm, when a huge percentage of women were still producing children in their late thirties and forties. In fact it’s almost a who’s who of famous wives: Anne Hutchinson for example- the Puritan dissident- was 47 and pregnant when she was exiled to Rhode Island, Queen Victoria was 40 when her youngest was born (and may have had more had Albert not died), Elizabeth Barret Browning was 43 when her child was born, Elizabeth I was still being actively courted in her 40s by suitors who believed she could possibly have a child (her maids were bribed to report whether she was still menstruating), and these aren’t anomalies but just “off the top of my head” women. It wasn’t at all uncommon for women to have a grandchild the same age as or older than her youngest child, yet there aren’t a lot of reports of women from that time having an indordinate number of retarded children. So I’ve wondered if perhaps things like diet, exercise (which even queens and the upper class would have gotten more exercise before modern technology), the fact that they had several children after the age of 35, etc.. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2009, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-kids-and-counting-becomes-19-kids-and-counting/508576/49 "2009-09-03T02:33:57Z")
> [@StGermain](#): > > I have no kids of my own, but I have 42 first cousins. I have over a hundred first cousins. Mom was one of 12 kids and Dad was one of 11. ---
**Author:** ![BaneSidhe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c5a1d2/32.png) [@BaneSidhe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BaneSidhe)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2009, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-kids-and-counting-becomes-19-kids-and-counting/508576/50 "2009-09-03T04:26:43Z")
My mom was 43, 8 days shy of her 44th birthday when I was born in 1968. Several doctors told her that having me at such a “late age” was a risk, but she told 'em to take a flying one. This whole Duggar thing makes me just :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2009, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-kids-and-counting-becomes-19-kids-and-counting/508576/51 "2009-09-03T07:17:18Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > So I’ve wondered if perhaps things like diet, exercise (which even queens and the upper class would have gotten more exercise before modern technology), the fact that they had several children after the age of 35, etc.. No, it’s probably just because the risk is still fairly low, it’s just way higher than it is at younger ages. And in the case of royalty, I wouldn’t put it past them to spirit away or even kill a DS baby. And I seriously doubt queens and the upper crust women of yore got more exercise than modern women. Wasn’t Victoria carried everywhere in a palanquin-- like, even to the bathroom and such? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2009, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-kids-and-counting-becomes-19-kids-and-counting/508576/52 "2009-09-03T11:24:26Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > In fact it’s almost a who’s who of famous wives: Anne Hutchinson for example- the Puritan dissident- was 47 and pregnant when she was exiled to Rhode Island, Queen Victoria was 40 when her youngest was born (and may have had more had Albert not died), Elizabeth Barret Browning was 43 when her child was born, Elizabeth I was still being actively courted in her 40s by suitors who believed she could possibly have a child (her maids were bribed to report whether she was still menstruating), and these aren’t anomalies but just “off the top of my head” women. It wasn’t at all uncommon for women to have a grandchild the same age as or older than her youngest child, yet there aren’t a lot of reports of women from that time having an indordinate number of retarded children. > > So I’ve wondered if perhaps things like diet, exercise (which even queens and the upper class would have gotten more exercise before modern technology), the fact that they had several children after the age of 35, etc.. Perhaps you are forgetting that children with DS are also likely to have other problems such as heart malformations and other problems that, without modern medicine, make them far more likely to die? Before the mid-20th Century a lot of DS babies likely died in infancy due to physical problems beyond mental retardation. Thus, they did not make it into the history books or historical record beyond the infant mortality rate. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2009, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-kids-and-counting-becomes-19-kids-and-counting/508576/53 "2009-09-03T12:57:39Z")
Down Syndrome babies also tend to have lots of difficulties nursing - so before modern times that would have contributed greatly to mortality. Speaking of breastfeeding, I’ve read that they limit nursing to artificially induce returned fertility - just how is that “leaving things in God’s hands”? Personally, I think they really are quite nutty (but carefully edited and/or presented), and have an obsession with having babies, regardless of their given reason for it. I hope for the sake of her current and possible future children she becomes infertile quickly and without trauma. Though I think it’s more likely that her uterus will rupture during a pregnancy, due to all the c-sections, which could easily be fatal. Though perhaps most of her children won’t much notice her absence, as she hasn’t been mothering them herself. Though I don’t like them, I have to be fair and mention that several of the older girls have said they want to be nurses, teachers, midwives, and such. So speculation that they’ll be immediately married and bred is a little off-base. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2009, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-kids-and-counting-becomes-19-kids-and-counting/508576/54 "2009-09-03T13:44:33Z")
> [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > Though I don’t like them, I have to be fair and mention that several of the older girls have said they want to be nurses, teachers, midwives, and such. So speculation that they’ll be immediately married and bred is a little off-base. That will only happen within the tiny scope of their fundie groups purview. They will get married off then sent to school so they can learn how to keep it all in the little church community. If you think they will be allowed out of the little community unmarried and unbred, you are sadly mistaken. As soon as it is legal, they will get married and start to pop out sprogs. Any schooling will be ancilliary to that. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2009, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-kids-and-counting-becomes-19-kids-and-counting/508576/55 "2009-09-03T14:10:13Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Wasn’t Victoria carried everywhere in a palanquin-- like, even to the bathroom and such? She lived in 19th century England, not ancient Egypt or something. When Queen Victoria wanted to get somewhere, she traveled like pretty much any other upper class Briton…she hoofed it or took a carriage or train. ---
**Author:** ![SaharaTea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@SaharaTea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaharaTea)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-kids-and-counting-becomes-19-kids-and-counting/508576/56 "2009-09-03T14:17:04Z")
> [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > Though I don’t like them, I have to be fair and mention that several of the older girls have said they want to be nurses, teachers, midwives, and such. So speculation that they’ll be immediately married and bred is a little off-base. Not according to the teachings of Bill Gothard, which the Duggars [follow](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duggar_family#Controversy): > [@](#): > > In addition, the Duggar parents have Bible-based parenting ideas. None of the family’s daughters are permitted to do typically ‘male’ activities, such as having short hair, wearing pants or attending college. The Duggars follow the teachings of Bill Gothard, which include that female children not go to college, children should not leave the home until they are married, families do not use birth control and refuse many forms of pre-natal care, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-kids-and-counting-becomes-19-kids-and-counting/508576/57 "2009-09-03T16:08:35Z")
Well, that’s depressing, but not exactly surprising. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-kids-and-counting-becomes-19-kids-and-counting/508576/58 "2009-09-03T20:54:31Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Everybody come up with two more names that start with **J** ; one for a boy and one for a girl. > > I nominate Jürgen and Josephine. Jeffrey and Jacqueline. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-kids-and-counting-becomes-19-kids-and-counting/508576/59 "2009-09-03T21:21:37Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > She lived in 19th century England, not ancient Egypt or something. When Queen Victoria wanted to get somewhere, she traveled like pretty much any other upper class Briton…she hoofed it or took a carriage or train. Eh, I definitely remember reading somewhere that she was carried everywhere, but it might’ve been a fictional portrayal, hence the question mark. ---
**Author:** ![Carl\_Corey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Carl\_Corey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carl_Corey)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-kids-and-counting-becomes-19-kids-and-counting/508576/60 "2009-09-04T17:01:16Z")
It’s possible that she was carried towards the end of her life. I think she may have suffered from gout, which made it hard to get around. Or I could just be confusing her with Queen Anne. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-kids-and-counting-becomes-19-kids-and-counting/508576.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/18-kids-and-counting-becomes-19-kids-and-counting/508576.md?page=4)