# 1812 Overture for the 4th? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 5, 2005, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1812-overture-for-the-4th/311098 "2005-07-05T02:49:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1812-overture-for-the-4th/311098/21 "2005-07-05T15:17:39Z")
Didn’t the US support Napoleon? Wasn’t the Louisiana Purchas so he could fund his war? Does anyone know what the lyrics translate to? THe Wikipedia article says that originally it was a song called God Save the Tzar but it was changed during communist times to a different song. I never knew there were two versions so I don’t know if the version I’ve always heard was the original or the new one. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1812-overture-for-the-4th/311098/22 "2005-07-05T15:36:15Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Didn’t the US support Napoleon? Wasn’t the Louisiana Purchas so he could fund his war? > Does anyone know what the lyrics translate to? THe Wikipedia article says that originally it was a song called God Save the Tzar but it was changed during communist times to a different song. I never knew there were two versions so I don’t know if the version I’ve always heard was the original or the new one. [God Save the Tsar](http://www.answers.com/topic/god-save-the-tsar) Russian lyrics ``` Боже, Царя храни! Сильный, державный, Царствуй на славу, Hа славу намъ! ( 2x ) Царствуй на страхъ врагамъ, Царь православный, Боже, Царя, Царя храни! ( 2x ) ``` Transliteration ``` Bozhe, Tsarya hrani! Silnyy, derzhavnyy, Tsarstvuy na slavu, Na slavu nam! ( 2x ) Tsarstvuy na strakh vragam, Tsar' pravoslavnyy. Bozhe, Tsarya, Tsarya hrani! ( 2x ) ``` English Translation ``` O God, save thou the Tsar! Strong and majestic, Reign he in glory, In our glory! ( 2x ) Dread of his enemies, The Christian Sovereign, God, save the Tsar, Save Thou the Tsar! ( 2x ) ``` ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1812-overture-for-the-4th/311098/23 "2005-07-05T15:48:34Z")
> [@Ellen Cherry](#): > > [God Save the Tsar](http://www.answers.com/topic/god-save-the-tsar) > > Russian lyrics > > ``` > Боже, Царя храни! > Сильный, державный, > Царствуй на славу, > Hа славу намъ! > > ( 2x ) > > Царствуй на страхъ врагамъ, > Царь православный, > Боже, Царя, > Царя храни! > > ( 2x ) > > ``` > > Transliteration > > ``` > Bozhe, Tsarya hrani! > Silnyy, derzhavnyy, > Tsarstvuy na slavu, > Na slavu nam! > > ( 2x ) > > Tsarstvuy na strakh vragam, > Tsar' pravoslavnyy. > Bozhe, Tsarya, > Tsarya hrani! > > ( 2x ) > > ``` > > English Translation > > ``` > O God, save thou the Tsar! > Strong and majestic, > Reign he in glory, > In our glory! > > ( 2x ) > > Dread of his enemies, > The Christian Sovereign, > God, save the Tsar, > Save Thou the Tsar! > > ( 2x ) > > ``` Yes but is that what is being sung in a recording of the work? Or is it the newer tune? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1812-overture-for-the-4th/311098/24 "2005-07-05T15:54:08Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Plus, maybe they could play some American composers? In DC, that’s what they play during the rest of the Capital Fourth concert. The standard for much of the past 25 years has been John Williams, Irving Berlin, John Philip Sousa and various pop artists–this year featured The Beach Boys, Gloria Estefan, and The O’Jays. The finale is always _The 1812 Overture_, which is synchronized with the fireworks. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1812-overture-for-the-4th/311098/25 "2005-07-05T16:05:22Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > I’m pretty sure we won that one in the end. You know, it’s like a wrassling match. The evil wrestler has got to get some good hits in first, then we knock 'em down and climb up to the top rope for our finishing move. Except that finishing move came AFTER the signing of the Treaty of Ghent. Not that knowledge of the signing would’ve prevented the battle; the treaty had not yet been ratified by Congress so it was not in effect and Pakenham would surely have wanted to take New Orleans as the southern boundaries were not set by the treaty and as the man who gained the mouth of the Mississippi for the Crown Pakenham would surely have gotten a little more respect at family functions. (His BIL, the Duke of Wellington, a canny judge of character, thought him a moron.) ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1812-overture-for-the-4th/311098/26 "2005-07-05T17:25:32Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > My recording makes them sound more like a cap gun. If I remember my liner notes correctly (which I haven’t seen in over a decade), they’re actually popping balloons. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1812-overture-for-the-4th/311098/27 "2005-07-05T17:34:10Z")
Well then it must be okay, since it’s the same God we ask to bless America that they asked to save the Tsar. Oh, come to think of it, that’s not a very comforting thought, though. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1812-overture-for-the-4th/311098/28 "2005-07-05T18:42:54Z")
There is a Christian hymn set to the same music as “God Save the Tsar” [http://www.oremus.org/hymnal/g/g280.html](http://www.oremus.org/hymnal/g/g280.html) [http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/g/t/gtomnipo.htm](http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/g/t/gtomnipo.htm) The above are two links to it. Wording slightly modernized in the first link, but the second has more background on the tune, and the authors of the hymn’s lyrics. ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1812-overture-for-the-4th/311098/29 "2005-07-05T19:09:28Z")
Playing the _1812_ on the 4th of July seems to be one of those modern-day conventions – you just do it because, well, it’s expected. Was it the Boston Pops who started that, with their concerts on the Esplanade? I suspect so, though the tradition might go back even earlier, like The Goldman Band in New York City. You don’t question this kind of tradition musically; if we did, we’d stop playing _The Messiah_ at Eastertime – and what would Christmas be without _Grandma Got Run Over By a Reindeer?_ Besides, ol’ Peter Ilyich quotes _La Marseillaise_, France was our Revolutionary War buddy. In today’s climate, where so many Americans think the French suck, that’s been forgotten. For those putting together past concerts, it was an easy choice. As veteran of many Independence Day concerts, there’s a handful of pieces that just seem to be easy to program here, including quasi-patriotic themes like Morton Gould’s _American Salute_ (based on the tune _When Johnny Comes Marching Home_) and the Charles Ives _Variations on America_, to name just two. Most anything that ties in folk tunes or themes associated with any of our battles (like Clare Grundman’s folk song suites), that stuff works. It’s easier to program this kind of thing, though I suspect most audiences today would prefer to listen to, oh, _The Angry American._🙂 I’ve also played lots of George M. Cohan stuff on July 4th – _You’re A Grand Old Flag, Over There,_ though I’ve seen people pull out _Give My Regards To Broadway_ in a pinch. All his stuff is flagwavers of one kind or another anyway, I guess. Besides the _1812_, the two pieces I’ve seen the most on 4th of July concerts is the Carmen Dragon arrangement of _America the Beautiful_, which, I got to tell you, is one of the most beautiful. I bet I’ve played it a couple hundred times in my life and it still chokes me up to play it, or even to hear it, though I know it’s hokey. Yeah, it’s way hokey. It’s GREAT. (Check it out yourself courtesy of the Air Force, go here: [United States Air Force Band of the Golden West](http://public.travis.amc.af.mil/pages/band/text%20site/textDownloads.html); free mp3 files, your tax dollars at work.) And of course, the concert’s not over until you play Sousa’s _Stars and Stripes Forever_. THAT’s usually the piece I’m playing when the fireworks go off. (You can hear the Air Force on that too, check the page referenced above.) Didja know the piccolo solo sounds really cool on the tuba? your humble TubaDiva Who didn’t have a gig this year and felt all day long long she was supposed to be somewhere else . . .doing something else. ---
**Author:** ![mobo85](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mobo85](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mobo85)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1812-overture-for-the-4th/311098/30 "2005-07-05T19:37:51Z")
As long as we’re complaining about 4th of July concerts: Gretchen Wilson over in Boston, Lynn Ahrens got it wrong. There’s a “of the United States” in there. Nice anthem-and-quote-medley except for that, though. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1812-overture-for-the-4th/311098/31 "2005-07-05T19:47:41Z")
> [@Antonius Block](#): > > Apparently, Liszt’s _Battle of the Huns_ (with which I am not familiar) is ranked with the _1812_ and _Wellington’s Victory_ in the list of “battle pieces”, so it may have artilery as well. I have both of these on a CD, and it’s fairly light-weight ordnance with a lot of spattering of musketry. Very distracting if you’re trying to get work done while it’s playing. I enjoy looking through the various recordings of the 1812 Overture, as there are relatively few orchestral works promoted on the basis of the authenticity and volume of their cannon fire. Besides there is a common theme involving the events of 1812 in Russia and the American War of Independence - repelling foreign invaders, triumphing against the odds, the French military making compelling targets in overly gaudy uniforms etc. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1812-overture-for-the-4th/311098/32 "2005-07-05T19:58:12Z")
So **Tubadiva** , Do you know what they are singing? Is it God Save the Tzar, Glory,(the commie sub) or the Christian Hymn? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1812-overture-for-the-4th/311098/33 "2005-07-05T20:12:33Z")
> [@mobo85](#): > > As long as we’re complaining about 4th of July concerts: Gretchen Wilson over in Boston, Lynn Ahrens got it wrong. There’s a “of the United States” in there. Nice anthem-and-quote-medley except for that, though. What!? Did the Boston Pops actually play something from _Schoolhouse Rock_ at the concert on the Esplanade? ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1812-overture-for-the-4th/311098/34 "2005-07-05T21:05:58Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > So **Tubadiva** , > > Do you know what they are singing? Is it God Save the Tzar, Glory,(the commie sub) or the Christian Hymn? If they’re singing in Russian, your guess is as good as mine. However, where this little ditty is concerned, the correct answer is actually “all of the above.” According to [The Cyber Hymnal](http://www.cyberhymnal.org), the music was originally written in 1833 “Russian Hymn,” which is when it was known as “God Save the Tsar!” English lyrics were added after that. See [God the Omnipotent](http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/g/t/gtomnipo.htm) This is actually a pretty common procedure, as anyone who has been to the baseball game and heard \*To Anacreon in Heaven \* (otherwise known as _The Star Spangled Banner_) can testify. Good tunes get recycled. your humble TubaDiva ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1812-overture-for-the-4th/311098/35 "2005-07-05T21:50:29Z")
In other words, your individuality will be assimilated into the whole. Resistance is futile. ---
**Author:** ![MacSpon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/34f0e0/32.png) [@MacSpon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacSpon)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1812-overture-for-the-4th/311098/36 "2005-07-06T01:06:35Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Why don’t we just play that song from Apocolypse Now. Dunt da-da Daaa Dunt Dunt da-da Daaa Dunt. Isn’t that the _Ride of the Valkyries_? Another good American tune, I guess … :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![mobo85](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mobo85](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mobo85)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1812-overture-for-the-4th/311098/37 "2005-07-06T01:34:19Z")
> [@Robot Arm](#): > > What!? Did the Boston Pops actually play something from _Schoolhouse Rock_ at the concert on the Esplanade? No. Gretchen Wilson, Big & Rich, and Cowboy Troy performed a piece called _Our America_ (which, they stated, could be downloaded at [CBS.com](http://CBS.com)), which was basically _The Star-Spangled Banner_ with some famous phrases in between each line (The Preamble to the Constitiution, Martin Luther King’s “I Have A Dream” speech, the “we hold these truths…” from the Declaration, and the Pledge of Allegiance). The piece opened with Gretchen Wilson saying “We the people, in order to form a more perfect union…” I blame Lynn Ahrens for omitting the words “Of the United States” for this happening, since I’ve read that hundreds of people (including myself) have learned the Preamble from her famous _Schoolhouse Rock_ song. Apparently, whoever put this piece together didn’t realize the Constitution opened with the words “We the People of the United States.” ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1812-overture-for-the-4th/311098/38 "2005-07-06T02:32:25Z")
> [@MacSpon](#): > > Isn’t that the _Ride of the Valkyries_? > Another good American tune, I guess … :rolleyes: Do you know why the eyes of your smilie is looking up? Wwwwwwwhhhhhoooooooooosssssssssss ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1812-overture-for-the-4th/311098/39 "2005-07-06T03:11:21Z")
> [@congodwarf](#): > > Unless I’m totally deaf, the Pops didn’t play it tonight. I heard Aerosmith and U2 but no 1812. This is the first time in my life that I didn’t hear it. I really missed it. They did play it, but earlier. I think it finished right at 10:00, and there were a few fireworks (and cannon, of course) then. After that was all that country stuff and I turned it off and just listened out the window. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2005, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1812-overture-for-the-4th/311098/40 "2005-07-06T03:18:54Z")
Did you guys see the NY Show? I watched it in HD, and it was awesome. Rather than have live music, they choreographed the fireworks to a very cool set of recorded songs. It looked almost like a laser show, except with explosives. I’m pretty sure it’s the best fireworks show I’ve ever seen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1812-overture-for-the-4th/311098.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1812-overture-for-the-4th/311098.md?page=3)