# 1st Edition AD&D: Multi-class x.p. **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 24, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-edition-ad-d-multi-class-x-p/622967 "2012-05-24T17:06:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Runestar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/74df32/32.png) [@Runestar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Runestar)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-edition-ad-d-multi-class-x-p/622967/21 "2012-05-25T15:26:40Z")
I went down to my hobby room, pulled my old 1st edition AD&D books off the shelf, and flipped through the Players Handbook and the Dungeon Master’s Guide. I can’t find anything about how you divide XP among multiclassed characters either. Maybe we all just assumed that’s how it worked, because it seems to make the most sense. But, lordy, it’s been a long time since I cracked any of those books. What a wave of nostalgia washed over me as I flipped through them. My friends and I used to play regularly in college and for several years afterwards, but as babies started popping out folks just got too busy to play. I think the last time we played a game was nearly 20 years ago. Flipping through the books also reminded me of just how disorganized they were. The Player’s Handbook isn’t too bad, but the Dungeon Master’s Guide is a disaster; information scattered all over the place. For example, the section on awarding experience points is in the mid-80s; _after_ sections on how to hire a Sage NPC and what sorts of insanity a player character might develop. It’s amazing that any of us managed to play the darn game. I think we succeeded because mostly we didn’t worry about / need any of that extraneous information. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-edition-ad-d-multi-class-x-p/622967/22 "2012-05-25T15:36:15Z")
In the PH: “See the description of awarding experience to multi-class characters in the DMG, p. X.” In the DMG: “See the description of playing multi-class characters in the PH, p. Y.” Neither of which would provide the information you needed. Anecdotally, I never had a 1st edition campaign make it past 10th level, so the whole “level cap” thing never really came up. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-edition-ad-d-multi-class-x-p/622967/23 "2012-05-25T17:31:15Z")
In my experience, the level cap thing was something that never even needed to be corrected, because all of the players and the DM would all independently decide not only that it was stupid, but that it was so obvious that it was stupid that everyone else had clearly also already decided so. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-edition-ad-d-multi-class-x-p/622967/24 "2012-05-25T18:41:16Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Anecdotally, I never had a 1st edition campaign make it past 10th level, so the whole “level cap” thing never really came up. They must have all been playing humans, then. I remember there are some class/race combinations that were limited to 6th level – 4th or 5th, if your Primary Attribute wasn’t high enough. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-edition-ad-d-multi-class-x-p/622967/25 "2012-05-25T20:07:21Z")
Right. This was due to Gary Gygax’s insistence that Humans had to be the center of the game world, and could not be outshined by nonhumans. After all, if nonhumans were better than humans, why didn’t they rule the world? And nonhumans got all sorts of racial advantages and perks, so they needed some disadvantages to balance them out. Except level caps didn’t make a lick of sense for balancing humans vs nonhumans, since the nonhumans were better in every way until they hit the level cap, and then they were worse in every way. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-edition-ad-d-multi-class-x-p/622967/26 "2012-05-25T20:12:11Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Except level caps didn’t make a lick of sense for balancing humans vs nonhumans, since the nonhumans were better in every way until they hit the level cap, and then they were worse in every way. [Our Elves Are Better](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurElvesAreBetter). ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-edition-ad-d-multi-class-x-p/622967/27 "2012-05-25T20:18:47Z")
BTW, I assume the (unwritten) rule is that if you’re running a Fighter/Magic-user, and he hits the level cap for his race as a Fighter, his magic-user class **still** only gets half the X.P. the character earns, correct? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-edition-ad-d-multi-class-x-p/622967/28 "2012-05-26T00:36:02Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Except level caps didn’t make a lick of sense for balancing humans vs nonhumans, since the nonhumans were better in every way until they hit the level cap, and then they were worse in every way. It was never about balance; in fact, it was about the exact opposite: > **[Demi-Human Level Limits – What Were Those About?](https://ruscumag.wordpress.com/2011/02/27/demi-human-level-limits-what-were-those-about/)** > > As an old gamer, I’ve seen the topic of “Demi-Human Level Limits” come up a lot, along with the notion that “they don’t work” or “aren’t balancedR… > **[Ancient History – Demi-Human Level Limits responses](https://ruscumag.wordpress.com/2011/03/09/ancient-history-demi-human-level-limits-responses/)** > > An article on what the older edition’s DemiHuman Level Limits were all about has brought forth a fairly long response – which has led to an even longer answer. Ergo, first up for today, is we… > **[Ancient History II – More Demi-Human Level Limits Responses](https://ruscumag.wordpress.com/2011/03/10/ancient-history-ii-more-demi-human-level-limits-responses/)** > > First up for today, it’s another lengthy article response – again by Migo on demi-human level limits. For those interested in the topic, but who have found this article first, here are some l… ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-edition-ad-d-multi-class-x-p/622967/29 "2012-05-26T00:57:24Z")
> [@tracer](#): > > BTW, I assume the (unwritten) rule is that if you’re running a Fighter/Magic-user, and he hits the level cap for his race as a Fighter, his magic-user class **still** only gets half the X.P. the character earns, correct? Yep. That reminds me that there may have been a way around this… I don’t have my books any more, but I remember a character let himself get polymorphed into a human so he could keep levelling past the cap (he had to drop one class). Probably a wildly houseruled thing, so YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-edition-ad-d-multi-class-x-p/622967/30 "2012-05-27T02:14:54Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > That reminds me that there may have been a way around this… I don’t have my books any more, but I remember a character let himself get polymorphed into a human so he could keep levelling past the cap (he had to drop one class). We had that exact thing happen in our 1E campaign in college. The one non-human character in the group (an elf magic-user) polymorphed herself into a human, so she could keep advancing in level. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-edition-ad-d-multi-class-x-p/622967/31 "2012-05-27T08:00:49Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Yep. > > That reminds me that there may have been a way around this… I don’t have my books any more, but I remember a character let himself get polymorphed into a human so he could keep levelling past the cap (he had to drop one class). Probably a wildly houseruled thing, so YMMV. > [@kenobi\_65](#): > > We had that exact thing happen in our 1E campaign in college. The one non-human character in the group (an elf magic-user) polymorphed herself into a human, so she could keep advancing in level. An interesting idea. \*\* Polymorph Self\*\* (4th level MU spell; 7th level caster) isn’t permanent, so presumably the spell **Polymorph Other** (also 4th level MU spell; 7th level caster) was employed (the name suggests you can’t use it on yourself, but the description doesn’t say whether you can.) However not only does the spell say the recipient is unwilling - there’s also a save v death! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-edition-ad-d-multi-class-x-p/622967/32 "2012-05-27T13:49:45Z")
> [@glee](#): > > However not only does the spell say the recipient is unwilling - there’s also a save v death! :eek: Nitpick: System Shock. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-edition-ad-d-multi-class-x-p/622967/33 "2012-05-27T15:46:57Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Nitpick: System Shock. Nitpick right back at you 😉 : I didn’t say ‘save v Death’; I said ‘save v death’. And if you fail your System Shock roll - you die! ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-edition-ad-d-multi-class-x-p/622967/34 "2012-05-27T15:55:20Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Nitpick right back at you 😉 : > > I didn’t say ‘save v Death’; I said ‘save v death’. > And if you fail your System Shock roll - you die! It was 1st edition. most people played their characters as mindless power0-seekers. And apart from that, nothing says you couldn’t improve on the spells that exuisted with your own high-level tool, especially if you ready to hit the racial level cap. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-edition-ad-d-multi-class-x-p/622967/35 "2012-05-27T16:06:28Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Nitpick right back at you 😉 : > > I didn’t say ‘save v Death’; I said ‘save v death’. > And if you fail your System Shock roll - you die! Pfff, like death is a big deal in 1st Edition AD&D. One tenth-level cleric, a Resurrection Survival check – which has a better chance of success than a System Shock check – and a week or two of rest and recouperation, and you’re back up on your feet ready to give it another go! ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-edition-ad-d-multi-class-x-p/622967/36 "2012-05-27T17:02:03Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > It was 1st edition. most people played their characters as mindless power0-seekers. And apart from that, nothing says you couldn’t improve on the spells that exuisted with your own high-level tool, especially if you ready to hit the racial level cap. I think there are mindless power seekers in every version! Maybe I was lucky with my group. We decided to DM in turn, which meant we all got a good knowledge of the rules, wanted a balanced game with easy-to-remember rules and were keen to add our own House Manual to fill in gaps. And we valued roleplaying over acquiring xp. One of our most enjoyable campaigns was when we finished a series of modules (Dragonlance)and the DM asked what we’d like him to write next. We chose to drop to about half our current levels and roll up a set of characters who started life as prisoners of the ‘War of the Lance’. Our Draconian captors had just run off (as the war was lost), and once we managed to get out of our cells, we started with nothing (the Clerics didn’t even have Holy Symbols. :eek: ) When you’re a Fighter in a robe with a tree branch as a makeshift club, the howl of a wolf pack can be surprisingly scary… > [@tracer](#): > > Pfff, like death is a big deal in 1st Edition AD&D. > > One tenth-level cleric, a Resurrection Survival check – which has a better chance of success than a System Shock check – and a week or two of rest and recouperation, and you’re back up on your feet ready to give it another go! I agree that the game tries to keep your character going. (Although an 11 constitution only gives you an 80% chance of surviving Raise Dead.) Mind you, when I tried 4th Edition, it seemed like every round somebody let rip a ‘healing surge’ (using an action, item or spell.) One campaign I visited hadn’t had a death in 7 years… ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-edition-ad-d-multi-class-x-p/622967/37 "2012-05-27T18:52:03Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Mind you, when I tried 4th Edition, it seemed like every round somebody let rip a ‘healing surge’ (using an action, item or spell.) > One campaign I visited hadn’t had a death in 7 years… That’s because 4th Edition is trying to follow the MMO model, with combat healers. And with game mechanics that allow “tank” classes to hold aggro. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-edition-ad-d-multi-class-x-p/622967/38 "2012-05-27T20:13:06Z")
human 7th level Magic user/8th level illusionist. that was nasty due to the way illusions worked, if you tried to disbelieve and made the save you took no damage, of course if it was a real fireball instead of a fake one you took full damage with no save because your dumb ass was standing there trying to wish it away. I could swear there was a bit about the exp getting divided between classes for the multiclassed races but my books that I was going to give away got flood destroyed when the water heater broke so I can’t look them up. if it is in there its probably someplace weird. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-edition-ad-d-multi-class-x-p/622967/39 "2012-05-27T20:47:09Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > human 7th level Magic user/8th level illusionist. that was nasty due to the way illusions worked, if you tried to disbelieve and made the save you took no damage, of course if it was a real fireball instead of a fake one you took full damage with no save because your dumb ass was standing there trying to wish it away. I don’t recall ever seeing a rule that said “Attempting to disbelieve X automatically negates any saving throw you would otherwise get against X” anywhere in the 1st Edition AD&D PHB, DMG, or Unearthed Arcana. That must’ve been a House Rule you were playing with. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-edition-ad-d-multi-class-x-p/622967/40 "2012-05-28T01:23:01Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > human 7th level Magic user/8th level illusionist. that was nasty due to the way illusions worked, if you tried to disbelieve and made the save you took no damage, of course if it was a real fireball instead of a fake one you took full damage with no save because your dumb ass was standing there trying to wish it away. > [@tracer](#): > > I don’t recall ever seeing a rule that said “Attempting to disbelieve X automatically negates any saving throw you would otherwise get against X” anywhere in the 1st Edition AD&D PHB, DMG, or Unearthed Arcana. > > That must’ve been a House Rule you were playing with. 1. Illusionists are defined as a sub-class of Magic Users and the section on dual class says you must change class, so a Magic User / Illusionist wasn’t legal in 1st Edition. 2. I too can find no mention of no save (thus full damage) if you thought an actual spell was an illusion. (Indeed Gygax says in the DM Guide that a character chained to a rock still gets a save v Dragon’s Breath.) Shadow Magic (5th level Illusionist spell) lets an Illusionist cast a quasi-real MU spell. It does normal damage if the victims fail their save and 1hp / level if they make their save. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-edition-ad-d-multi-class-x-p/622967.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-edition-ad-d-multi-class-x-p/622967.md?page=3)