# 1st known use of non biological energy to do work? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 9, 2006, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-known-use-of-non-biological-energy-to-do-work/347757 "2006-03-09T23:30:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-known-use-of-non-biological-energy-to-do-work/347757/21 "2006-03-10T16:49:15Z")
How about winnowing (?) grain. Thowing grain into the air and letting the wind carry away the chaff while allowing the heavier grain to fall. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-known-use-of-non-biological-energy-to-do-work/347757/22 "2006-03-10T16:52:08Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > I thinkl the point that you are missingis tha tthe wedge and the binding were both specifically built in order to take advanatage of the fact that fire can provide mechanical energy. The wedge and the stone might qualify but when did people start doing that? It seems to me you need to possess metalworking skills to make the wedge. I do not know metals well enough to say what you need to pull off what you suggest here but the Bronze Age started ~3500 B.C. Iron working appeared arouns 1800 B.C. So a metal wedge to crack stones might have appeared before sails but then again it might not have. Someone who knows this technology better would have to say. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-known-use-of-non-biological-energy-to-do-work/347757/23 "2006-03-10T23:29:20Z")
It’s my understanding that the prevailing winds in Egypt blow from north to south, and that the Nile barges could deploy or stow their sails to go either way. If you want to go south, you put up the sail, and let the wind blow you upstream. If you want to go north, you take down the sail, and let the current carry you downstream. There’s clearly use of non-biological energy to do work somewhere in that process. That said, however, I’m not sure whether that technology predates fire stone-splitting. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2006, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-known-use-of-non-biological-energy-to-do-work/347757/24 "2006-03-10T23:40:31Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > goal is to create a permanent chemical change in the sinew. That change does not move anything, therefore no mechanical work. It certainly does move something. It moves the sinew and it moved the wood. That’s why the bond becomes so tight. It doesn’t move them very far because they were already closely along, but ut does move them, and it applied a shitload of force in doing so. You seem to be arguing that vice does no mechanical work. That simply isn’t true. Vices do mechanical work, and this is simply an early type of vice, > [@](#): > > .The river is a tool, but the river doesn’t do work, it just provides a very nearly level flowing surface for the item to move down. Whether you say the river does the work or gravity does the work is a sematic quibble, and I have no opinion either way. The point is that you agree that work is done and you agree that it is being done by something that is indisputably _not_ biological. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It seems to me you need to possess metalworking skills to make the wedge. Ahem. > [@Blake](#): > > Early stonemasons also used fire to heat metal or **stone** wedges driven into rocks or timber causing them to expand and split the block. One of the civilisations in the America, the Inca IIRC, used stone wedges for their masonry. Different types of stone have different expansion rates so you can readily use a stone wedge to split stone in this manner. In fact it’s easier than trying to use stone to split stone by beating it with a hammer. You can similarly use stone to split timber. When did people start doing this? As with most prehistoric technology we have no idea. It’s like asking when people first started using the lever. People could have started using this as early as 40, 000 years ago. It’s unlikely to have occurred much before that. But except in cases where the technology was being applie duntil recently it’s unlikely to leave evidence. > [@](#): > > As for trying to get to a bank while floating downstream you need to input energy to overcome nature’s desire to pull you down…just like you need to input energy to go up a hill. The point was the swimming against the flow of water requires a lot more energy than simply overcoming gravity. Trying to swim against even slow current is exhausting. Quite clearly the water is pushing against objects in it. If you dispute that then how do you explain that rivers can moves rocks, which don’t float? Flowing water provides motive force. If it did not then rivers would be unable to move anything that couldn’t float or be suspended, yet everyone knows that they move rocks. And you haven’t explained why the use of a sinew vice doesn’t qualify. It uses a non-biological energy source (fire). It moves the shaft and the sinew closer to the head, and exerts a great deal of force doing so. Why doesn’t it qualify? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-known-use-of-non-biological-energy-to-do-work/347757/25 "2006-03-11T00:02:41Z")
I get the impression that the OP is asking for early devices that harness natural forces where the alternative is labour, whether by man or domesticated beast. I think that’s why the sinew-lashed spearhead doesn’t seem as interesting - no one’s getting out of any work because of it. Contrast this with using sails to propel a barge up the Nile, where the alternatives are extremely labour-intensive. Wouldn’t splitting rocks with heated wedges leave reasonably obvious evidence in the form of split rocks used for stonemasonry? I’d be a bit surprised if this sort of technique had been developed prior to people starting to build permanent settlements. What applications does it have outside of building stone structures? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-known-use-of-non-biological-energy-to-do-work/347757/26 "2006-03-11T00:15:21Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Wouldn’t splitting rocks with heated wedges leave reasonably obvious evidence in the form of split rocks used for stonemasonry? No. Rocks can be split without using heated wedges, so the presence of split rocks isn;t evidence of the use of heated wedges. And If the rock is being split for the purposes of quarrying flint for arrowheads then the only evidence left will be flint quarries. The world is full of old flint quarries but we can’t know whether they used heated wedges > [@](#): > > I’d be a bit surprised if this sort of technique had been developed prior to people starting to build permanent settlements. What applications does it have outside of building stone structures? It can be used for quarrying stones for making tools just as easily as for stone masonry. But even if it was “only” used to make the very first stone monuments that still presumably means it predates sail craft by several thousand years. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-known-use-of-non-biological-energy-to-do-work/347757/27 "2006-03-11T00:42:57Z")
**Blake** : Do you have a cite for stone wedges being heated to split other stones? Or even metal wedges for that matter? Frankly I am not seeing it working as you advertise. Thinking on metal expanding enough to provide the force necessary I think is a stretch but stone? I Googled several different ways and found nothing indicating what you are suggesting. Lots of stuff on wedges splitting things but always because someone was hitting the wedge. > [@](#): > > Although only a theoretical concept, the workers would then place a series of two wooden blocks in the trench with the inner block supporting a metal wedge. A tapered wooden block is positioned between the two outer blocks then, by striking the wooden wedge, the force is transferred to the metal wedge causing the stone to split along the notched line. > > SOURCE: [http://amitron2001.tripod.com/cgi-bin/topic\_4.htm](http://amitron2001.tripod.com/cgi-bin/topic_4.htm) The Egyptians were pretty savvy builders. One would think if this were an obvious and useful means of splitting things (heating wedges) they would have done it. Frankly, by the time you fashion the wedge, drive the wedge at least part way into the stone, then chop down a bunch of trees and cart the logs to the thing you want heated, even if it worked, doesn’t seem like a labor saving effort. I’ll be thrilled to be proved wrong as it seems kind of neat…just need more info. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-known-use-of-non-biological-energy-to-do-work/347757/28 "2006-03-11T00:57:27Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > It certainly does move something. It moves the sinew and it moved the wood. That’s why the bond becomes so tight. It doesn’t move them very far because they were already closely along, but ut does move them, and it applied a shitload of force in doing so. You seem to be arguing that vice does no mechanical work. That simply isn’t true. Vices do mechanical work, and this is simply an early type of vice, Perhaps the different ways in which the OP is thinking about this and you are thinking about this is the ability to do continual work. Does the sinew contract when heated? Sure. But it is a one time deal. More heat or more time won’t get you more work. The sinew will only contract so much and that is it…no more work. Compare that to a sail. As long as the wind blows you get work out of the sail. Same with a wind or water mill or steam engine. As long as the power source remains going (wind, water, fire) you can get work from it. With the river you are merely using it as a medium for exchanging potential energy for real energy. However, the energy is present in the object being moved rather than the river. Once the object is at the end of the river (or bottom of a hill since floating downriver is akin to rolling downhill) the potential energy of the object is used up. Again you will get no more work from it even though the river is still running just behind it. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-known-use-of-non-biological-energy-to-do-work/347757/29 "2006-03-11T03:14:38Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Do you have a cite for stone wedges being heated to split other stones? Or even metal wedges for that matter? Frankly I am not seeing it working as you advertise. Thinking on metal expanding enough to provide the force necessary I think is a stretch but stone? Thinking on this a bit more I would expect metal to not do the trick. I think metal would be more likely to flow as it softens when heated and just squirt itself out of the hole rather than exert enough force to break the stone. Any metallurgists in the house? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-known-use-of-non-biological-energy-to-do-work/347757/30 "2006-03-11T04:02:48Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > This one is a little hard to decide on. > > If the ape (or whatever) carried the coconut (or whatever) to a great height (like climb a tree) then technically the energy is bilogical. The ape climbing the tree carrying the coconut essentially input the power in the form of potential energy into the nut. Dropping it just released that potential energy. Guess it depends how the nut arrived at its great height. American Indians herded Buffalo off of cliffs to efficiently kill them. Does that count? And I’m pretty Og the caveman realized that if he was on a cliff above Trogg, he could pick up stuff and drop it on him. No biological energy used to get the stuff up there. Would the use of tidal flows to traverse islands and such count? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2006, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-known-use-of-non-biological-energy-to-do-work/347757/31 "2006-03-11T04:34:38Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > American Indians herded Buffalo off of cliffs to efficiently kill them. Does that count? Nope. The buffalo got themselves to the top of the cliff that gave them the potential energy that ultimately spelled their doom. > [@](#): > > And I’m pretty Og the caveman realized that if he was on a cliff above Trogg, he could pick up stuff and drop it on him. No biological energy used to get the stuff up there. Guess that counts in the technical sense but again we have that one-way use of energy. Assume there was only one rock (or whatever) to drop on Trogg. That’ll work but if you also want to off his now pissed off friend Grok you need to run down, grab the rock and carry it back up. I doubt Grok would wait around for that. > [@](#): > > Would the use of tidal flows to traverse islands and such count? Not sure how this is supposed to work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1st-known-use-of-non-biological-energy-to-do-work/347757.md?page=1)