# 2 football questions **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 31, 2015, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-football-questions/729470 "2015-08-31T03:25:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-football-questions/729470/21 "2015-08-31T19:29:33Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > What if the ball passes around the pylon on the outside side, but the receiver (whose feet are on the ground in bounds inside the end zone) reaches out and pulls it in? The ball never passed through the in-bounds portion of the goal plane, but it still ends up in the end zone in possession of the receiver. TD > [@](#): > > What if it’s the same situation, except that the receiver has to jump to catch the ball? His feet are off the ground when he catches the ball. The last place he touched the ground before the catch was in bounds, and he lands out of bounds. Incomplete pass > [@](#): > > What if the ball itself doesn’t pass back in bounds, but the receiver who’s in-bounds catches it and then goes down with the ball firmly in his control, but out of bounds? TD, if I’m reading this right in that the receiver catches the ball with his feet inbounds, but then falls out of bounds. On a reception the only thing that matters is where your feet (or butt, knee, elbow, head, etc) are when they touch the ground and you have possession of the ball. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-football-questions/729470/22 "2015-08-31T19:42:08Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > The rules seem to indicate that the goal line is still “extended”; that is, the ball doesn’t need to pass over the in-bounds portion of the goal line, merely be in legal possession of a player who is in bounds, while being on or beyond the plane. > > [url=[http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2015-nfl-rulebook#rule-11.-scoring](http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2015-nfl-rulebook#rule-11.-scoring)] Thanks! 🙂 I’m gonna turn off the sound on the games. Stupid announcers. :rolleyes: * * * A catch has to be made “in bounds” or it’s not a catch. (The “\_” marks are for the inevitable subjective judgement calls and the argument of feet and/or body part vs ball) If a receiver starts out in bounds, jumps and catches, but lands out of bounds (even by a millimeter), it’s not a catch. End Zone, Goal Line, 50 yd line, MAdden’s Giant Ass, whatever. I include the body part line for landing on one’s back, ass, shoulder, etc… Where it gets even weirder is the “football move” discussion of how long does a ball need to be in a receiver’s possession for it to be a valid reception/interception. ---
**Author:** ![JSexton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@JSexton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JSexton)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-football-questions/729470/23 "2015-08-31T21:16:42Z")
Going to piggyback my own question: what’s the logic behind the rule that if you’re forced out of bounds, you can’t be the first to touch the ball? I get that you shouldn’t be able to avoid blockers by going out of bounds intentionally, and once forced out, you should try to get right back in bounds asap. But why is legal to push someone out of bounds and render them unable to field a kicked ball? ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-football-questions/729470/24 "2015-08-31T21:40:14Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > Going to piggyback my own question: what’s the logic behind the rule that if you’re forced out of bounds, you can’t be the first to touch the ball? I get that you shouldn’t be able to avoid blockers by going out of bounds intentionally, and once forced out, you should try to get right back in bounds asap. But why is legal to push someone out of bounds and render them unable to field a kicked ball? I think that only applies to members of the kicking team touching a kicked ball. As to the logic … heh. Logic. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-football-questions/729470/25 "2015-08-31T21:42:36Z")
> [@JSexton](#): > > But why is legal to push someone out of bounds and render them unable to field a kicked ball? It your job not to be pushed out of bounds. As long as the defense isn’t doing something illegal it’s up to the offense not to get themselves in a position where they end up out-of-bounds. Not sure of the full logic behind this but the idea is that football is a game of position and territory. It’s your job not to be pushed around and stay on the field of play. If the other team does so then you can’t take advantage of it. ---
**Author:** ![PSXer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/48db29/32.png) [@PSXer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PSXer)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-football-questions/729470/26 "2015-08-31T21:44:07Z")
Aren’t you allowed to touch the ball first if you get blocked out of bounds? eta: I thought you could but looking at these rules [http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/12\_Rule9\_Scrimmage\_Kick.pdf](http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/12_Rule9_Scrimmage_Kick.pdf) looks like I was wrong ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-football-questions/729470/27 "2015-08-31T21:52:41Z")
You can also catch a kick off out of bounds past the goal line and run it back inbounds ahead of the goal line (or used to be able to, maybe the rules have changed). ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-football-questions/729470/28 "2015-08-31T21:57:36Z")
On punt coverage, the kicking team can’t be first to touch the ball, whether or not they’ve stepped out of bounds earlier. An eligible receiver forced out of bounds by a penalty on the defense is allowed to touch a pass first. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-football-questions/729470/29 "2015-08-31T23:00:08Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > You can also catch a kick off out of bounds past the goal line and run it back inbounds ahead of the goal line (or used to be able to, maybe the rules have changed). In the pros only. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-football-questions/729470/30 "2015-09-01T00:31:06Z")
The End Zone isn’t out of bounds. It’s part of the field of play. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-football-questions/729470/31 "2015-09-01T03:36:13Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > it just _feels_ wrong to me to reward a team that has screwed up with a new set of downs, just because the other team happened to also be inept on that particular play. But I expect you’d be okay with a new set of downs if they recovered a fumble on the play after the one on which they lost possession - yes? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-football-questions/729470/32 "2015-09-01T12:58:39Z")
For scenario #1: It doesn’t matter if your pre-fumble action earned a first down or not. Once the ball changes possession, the next play will be 1st and 10 for someone. Imagine 4th & 25 and you desperately go for it. The QB drops back, scrambles around to buy time, a defensive linemen knocks the ball out of his hands…FUMBLE! The defender scoops up the ball and starts rumbling toward the end zone, but a speedy 3rd down back catches him from behind and knocks it out of his hands…FUMBLE! That back manages to jump on the ball just as the now very pissed off defender crushes him into the dirt. 1st and 10, the same team stays on offense. All changes of possession automatically grant 1st and 10, so in this example it doesn’t matter that it was 4th & 25 and the offense went backwards another 30 yards. For scenario #2: The ball doesn’t technically have to cross the plane in all cases. If a player has possession of the ball, the ball must cross the plane. However, if a player is _establishing_ possession – ie: he’s catching the ball – and the player lands in the end zone, it’s a touchdown regardless if the ball crosses the plane or not. Because catching a ball in the air and getting both feet down establishes possession where your feet went down. Since in this case (thinking of [that San Fran clip linked upthread](http://www.49ers.com/news/article-2/What-We-Learned-from-49ers-vs-Eagles/a5448d1d-721c-4c59-b3dc-d2ec0db2eeda)) his feet came down in the end zone, it’s a touchdown. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-football-questions/729470/33 "2015-09-01T13:31:04Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > On punt coverage, the kicking team can’t be first to touch the ball, whether or not they’ve stepped out of bounds earlier. Sure they can, to down the punt (but not if the player went out of bounds beforehand). Why do you say they can’t? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-football-questions/729470/34 "2015-09-01T13:34:50Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Sure they can, to down the punt (but not if the player went out of bounds beforehand). Why do you say they can’t? They can, but it’s a penalty. The result is the ball at the point of contact. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-football-questions/729470/35 "2015-09-01T14:23:35Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > But I expect you’d be okay with a new set of downs if they recovered a fumble on the play after the one on which they lost possession - yes? Sure. That’s a whole other play. But I get it, and I was 99% sure I knew the answer before I asked, and I don’t disagree with the logic. > [@EllisDee](#): > > For scenario #2: > > The ball doesn’t technically have to cross the plane in all cases. If a player has possession of the ball, the ball must cross the plane. However, if a player is _establishing_ possession – ie: he’s catching the ball – and the player lands in the end zone, it’s a touchdown regardless if the ball crosses the plane or not. Because catching a ball in the air and getting both feet down establishes possession where your feet went down. Since in this case (thinking of [that San Fran clip linked upthread](http://www.49ers.com/news/article-2/What-We-Learned-from-49ers-vs-Eagles/a5448d1d-721c-4c59-b3dc-d2ec0db2eeda)) his feet came down in the end zone, it’s a touchdown. Thank you for the explanation. This is really the scenario that was bothering me the most. Not that I don’t believe you, but do you happen to have a cite? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-football-questions/729470/36 "2015-09-01T16:15:37Z")
If we wait til regular season, an Odell Beckham Jr game clip will likely provide a nice visual of the scenario. And I’m not even a Giants fan. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-football-questions/729470/37 "2015-09-01T16:24:20Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > They can, but it’s a penalty. The result is the ball at the point of contact. How? A team punts the ball and tries to pin the receiving team deep in their end of the field. The punt receiver lets the ball bounce, hoping it goes into the end zone for a touchback. The kicking team tries to down the ball deep in the field of play, so they touch it first to down it. How is that a penalty on the kicking team? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-football-questions/729470/38 "2015-09-01T16:42:03Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > How is that a penalty on the kicking team? That’s the official ruling on the field, it’s a violation for illegal touching of the ball by the kicking team. The receiving team can still advance the ball but they always have the option of taking the ball at the point where it was illegally touched by the kicking team. > [@](#): > > ARTICLE 2. FIRST TOUCHING BEYOND THE LINE > “First touching” is when a player of the kicking team touches a scrimmage kick that is beyond the line of scrimmage before it has been touched by a player of the receiving team beyond the line. If the ball is first touched by a player of the kicking team, it remains in play. **First touching is a violation** , and the receivers shall have the option of taking possession of the ball at the spot of first touching, provided no penalty is accepted on the play, or at the spot where the ball is dead. First touching does not offset a foul by the receivers; if there is a foul by the receivers that is enforced, either before or after the first touching violation, the violation is disregarded, and the penalty is enforced as customary. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-football-questions/729470/39 "2015-09-01T16:46:04Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > How? A team punts the ball and tries to pin the receiving team deep in their end of the field. The punt receiver lets the ball bounce, hoping it goes into the end zone for a touchback. The kicking team tries to down the ball deep in the field of play, so they touch it first to down it. > > How is that a penalty on the kicking team? It’s not really a penalty; it’s a “violation”. The receiving team has the option to take the ball either at the point of first touching, or the point where the ball became dead. [ > [@NFL Rulebook](#): > > ARTICLE 2. FIRST TOUCHING BEYOND THE LINE > “First touching” is when a player of the kicking team touches a scrimmage kick that is beyond the line of scrimmage before it has been touched by a player of the receiving team beyond the line. If the ball is first touched by a player of the kicking team, it remains in play. First touching is a violation, and the receivers shall have the option of taking possession of the ball at the spot of first touching, provided no penalty is accepted on the play, or at the spot where the ball is dead. First touching does not offset a foul by the receivers; if there is a foul by the receivers that is enforced, either before or after the first touching violation, the violation is disregarded, and the penalty is enforced as customary. ]([http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2015-nfl-rulebook#rule-9.-scrimmage-kick](http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2015-nfl-rulebook#rule-9.-scrimmage-kick)) ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-football-questions/729470/40 "2015-09-01T17:01:35Z")
OK, thanks for the clarification, guys. Didn’t realize, all these years, that’s what it was! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-football-questions/729470.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-football-questions/729470.md?page=3)