# 2 versions of 10 commandments? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 17, 2002, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-versions-of-10-commandments/109614 "2002-05-17T20:33:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![kpm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c57346/32.png) [@kpm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kpm)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-versions-of-10-commandments/109614/1 "2002-05-17T20:33:58Z")
Why do Catholics have a different set of the 10 commandments from Protestants? Catholics at some point got rid of the commandment that says “do not worship idols” They made the 9th commandment into the 9th and 10th by splitting it up. Did some Pope do this? When did it happen? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-versions-of-10-commandments/109614/2 "2002-05-17T20:44:49Z")
Well, they don’t…it’s just a numbering thing. As the Catholic Encyclopedia puts it. > [@](#): > > A confusion, however, exists in the numbering, which is due to a difference of opinion concerning the initial precept on Divine worship. The system of numeration found in Catholic Bibles is based on the Hebrew text, was made by St. Augustine (fifth century) in his book of “Questions of Exodus” (“Quæstionum in Heptateuchum libri VII”, Bk. II, Question lxxi), and was adopted by the Council of Trent. It is followed also by the German Lutherans, except those of the school of Bucer. This arrangement makes the First Commandment relate to false worship and to the worship of false gods as to a single subject and a single class of sins to be guarded against–the reference to idols being regarded as mere application of the precept to adore but one God and the prohibition as directed against the particular offense of idolatry alone. According to this manner of reckoning, the injunction forbidding the use of the Lord’s Name in vain comes second in order; and the decimal number is safeguarded by making a division of the final precept on concupiscence–the Ninth pointing to sins of the flesh and the Tenth to desires for unlawful possession of goods. Another division has been adopted by the English and Helvetian Protestant churches on the authority of Philo Judæus, Josephus Origen, and others, whereby two Commandments are made to cover the matter of worship, and thus the numbering of the rest is advanced one higher; and the Tenth embraces both the Ninth and Tenth of the Catholic division. In other words, for Catholics, the “Worship G-d” and “Don’t have idols” are both 1 commandment, while for most Protestants, they’re 2, while the “Don’t covet your neighbor’s wife or his ass” are 2 commandments for Catholics, but most Protestants combine the two prohibitions. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-versions-of-10-commandments/109614/3 "2002-05-17T20:47:28Z")
There are only 9 commandments, so one of them must be split up in order to come up with 10 total. Protestants have 2 ‘Thou shalt not covet’ commandments. Catholics have 2 ‘Thou shalt have no other Gods’ commandments. ---
**Author:** ![Surreal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Surreal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surreal)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-versions-of-10-commandments/109614/4 "2002-05-17T21:05:20Z")
Make that- Catholics AND Lutherans have 2 ‘Thou shalt not covet’ commandments. All other Protestants (I think) have 2 ‘Thou shalt have no other Gods’ commandments. ---
**Author:** ![TheeGrumpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@TheeGrumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheeGrumpy)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2002, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-versions-of-10-commandments/109614/5 "2002-05-17T22:20:58Z")
Don’t forget the lesser-known version from [Exodus 34](http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?new=1&word=Exodus+34§ion=3&version=str&language=en) – the only list actually called the "Ten Commandments in the text: > [@](#): > > 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest. > … > 34:4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone. > … > 34:11 Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite. > 34:12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee: > 34:13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves: > 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: And so on, until we get to… > [@](#): > > 34:26 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother’s milk. > 34:27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. > 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the **ten commandments.** Not at all like the familiar version. AFAIK, neither Protestants nor Catholics put much stock in this list. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-versions-of-10-commandments/109614/6 "2002-05-18T01:14:30Z")
There are three places where it says the God handed Moses ten commandments: Exodus 34:28 and Deuteronomy 4:13 and Deuteronomy 10:4. (I have never heard the section referred to by **ThreeGumpy** as being the Decalogue. I have always seen that list noted as one of the several sets of instructions given by God, with the reference to the “ten” at the end being an instruction to go to the other list for more information.) There are two places where those ten commandments are listed, without being “named” the ten commandments and without having numbers assigned to each commandment: Exodus 20:1 - 7 and Deteronomy 5:6 - 21. Since the tradition of the “ten” is separate from the enumeration, there is a _little_ bit of latitude in how the ten are reckoned. The three traditional numbering systems are as follows (number 1 makes the most logical sense): The division of the Commandments (with some supporters of each list): \_\_I. - Philo of Alexandria, Jewish philosopher (ca. 10 BCE - 50 CE) - (Flavius) Josephus, Jewish historian (fl. 1st Century CE) - Greek Fathers of the Church - Modern Orthodox Churches - Reformed Protestant Churches 1. Prohibition of false or foreign gods 2. Prohibition of images 3. Prohibition on vain use of Divine name 4. Honor Sabbath 5. Honor parents 6. Prohibition of murder 7. Prohibition of adultery 8. Prohibition of theft 9. Prohibition of false witness 10. Prohibition of covetousness \_II. - Clement of Alexandria, Christian theologian (150 - 215?) - Origen, Christian theologian (ca. 185 - 254) - Augustine of Hippo, Christian theologian (354 - 430) - Modern Catholic Church - Evangelical/Lutheran Protestant Churches 1. Prohibition of false or foreign gods and images 2. Prohibition on vain use of Divine name 3. Honor Sabbath 4. Honor parents 5. Prohibition of murder 6. Prohibition of adultery 7. Prohibition of theft 8. Prohibition of false witness 9. Prohibition of coveting neighbor’s wife 10. Prohibition of coveting neighbor’s goods III. - Modern Judaism 1. “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.” 2. Prohibition of false or foreign gods and images 3. Prohibition on vain use of Divine name 4. Honor Sabbath 5. Honor parents 6. Prohibition of murder 7. Prohibition of adultery 8. Prohibition of theft 9. Prohibition of false witness 10. Prohibition of covetousness ---
**Author:** ![TheeGrumpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@TheeGrumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheeGrumpy)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-versions-of-10-commandments/109614/7 "2002-05-18T01:44:42Z")
Come to think of it, why “hew tables of stone” when the commandments were written down elsewhere (eventually)? I mean, the first set were smashed – but not before their contents were recorded in scripture. And if those commandments had already been transcribed, then why the second set of stone tablets? But that’s not relevant to the O.P. ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-versions-of-10-commandments/109614/8 "2002-05-18T01:50:04Z")
By the way, still during the Reformation this was a big bone of contention-- the “idols” clause and in which spot in the commandments it was included was a huge issue that played a strong role in the iconoclastic debates, like those resulting in the 1566 fury in Antwerp. There were a number of rhetorician’s plays and pamphletts that argued about this in tedious detail. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2002, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-versions-of-10-commandments/109614/9 "2002-05-18T03:46:48Z")
kpm: Care to prove your assertion that the Catholics “got rid” of the commandment forbidding idols? This should be entertaining since THEY DIDN’T! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2002, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-versions-of-10-commandments/109614/10 "2002-05-19T15:25:45Z")
kpm: Enquiring minds are still waiting on substantiation from you regarding your assertion about the Catholics dumping the prohibition against praying to idols. Better yet: admit you don’t know what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Lyllyan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b2d939/32.png) [@Lyllyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lyllyan)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2002, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-versions-of-10-commandments/109614/11 "2002-05-19T17:35:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TheeGrumpy \* > \*\*Come to think of it, why “hew tables of stone” when the commandments were written down elsewhere (eventually)? I mean, the first set were smashed – but not before their contents were recorded in scripture. And if those commandments had already been transcribed, then why the second set of stone tablets? > > But that’s not relevant to the O.P. \*\* Huh? Moses received two stone tablets. He started down the mountain to give these to his people. Before he got all the way down, he saw that they were cavorting and worshiping false idols. He got pissed off, and smashed one of the tablets. He went into camp, kicked ass, then trudged back up the mountain to get another copy. Later, these two tablets were placed in the Ark of the Covenant. The Commandments were not written down until years later. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2002, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-versions-of-10-commandments/109614/12 "2002-05-19T17:42:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*kpm: Care to prove your assertion that the Catholics “got rid” of the commandment forbidding idols? > > This should be entertaining since THEY DIDN’T! \*\* As this is a matter of some theological debate, the OP perhaps can be forgiven for thinking that they did. Catholics will say (and I am a former Catholic, with 12 years of religious education in Catholic schools) that of course they did not “get rid” of this commandment. But anyone who has been in a Catholic church (or a church of many other Christian denominations) will note that it is full of graven images - statues and other carvings - that are solemnly venerated by the faithful. This would seem to contradict a literal reading of this section of the commandments: > [@](#): > > **4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: > 5. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. [King James Version** Catholics and other Christians that do venerate images would contend that the critical part of this injunction is not the making of graven images per se, but the part that says “Thou shalt not . . . serve them.” That is, it’s OK to make the images themselves but not to worship the image itself as a god. (And for a full discussion, I would suggest consulting The Catholic Encyclopedia and this analysis of [The Veneration of Images](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm)) which admits: > [@](#): > > **The First Commandment would seem absolutely to forbid the making of any kind of representation of men, animals, or even plants** Some Christian groups, as well as Muslims (at least, some groups) understand verse 4 to be taken literally and thus to prohibit any depictions at all. According to this interpretation Catholics (and many other Christians) might well be considered to have abandoned this section of the commandment. ---
**Author:** ![parisms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@parisms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/parisms)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2002, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-versions-of-10-commandments/109614/13 "2002-05-19T19:43:59Z")
Colibri: Exodus 25:17-23, either God was contradicting himself or he meant something else than what you’re implying is the literal understanding of the first commandment ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2002, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-versions-of-10-commandments/109614/14 "2002-05-19T19:48:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by parisms \* > \*\*Colibri: > Exodus 25:17-23, either God was contradicting himself \*\* Wouldn’t be the first time. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2002, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-versions-of-10-commandments/109614/15 "2002-05-19T20:00:13Z")
I see after checking that the verse you quote refers to making cherubim to decorate the Ark of the Covenant. I am not “implying” that one or the other interpretation of the commandment is correct. I am merely stating that the interpretation is debatable, and that it has in fact been debated at great length by theologians for centuries (and probably millennia). ---
**Author:** ![stockton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@stockton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stockton)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-versions-of-10-commandments/109614/16 "2002-05-20T01:47:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*kpm: Care to prove your assertion that the Catholics “got rid” of the commandment forbidding idols? > > This should be entertaining since THEY DIDN’T! \*\* You should familiarize yourself with something called a “reliquary” Then look up “catholic idols” on google. Then get acquainted with the various petitions to saints and the virgin. (PROHIBITED in the 10 C’s) Also check out which day is the “seventh” (Saturday) and learn why you go to church on Sunday. Put that thing back in your holster, sonny. This ain’t the pit, and catholics didn’t invent God or write the bible. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-versions-of-10-commandments/109614/17 "2002-05-20T02:48:13Z")
Well, this isn’t the pit, and it’s not great debates, either, so I’ll just say that different Christian denominations interpret the ten commancments, and the prohibitions about idolatry differently. While we can debate which interpretation is more correct, this isn’t really the place to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-versions-of-10-commandments/109614/18 "2002-05-20T02:59:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Then get acquainted with the various petitions to saints and the virgin. (PROHIBITED in the 10 C’s) Where do the Ten Commandments say that you’re not allowed to ask a few friends for help with something? ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-versions-of-10-commandments/109614/19 "2002-05-20T03:38:48Z")
Ahem. We are not going to have a theology debate in General Questions. I promise you. Cross my heart and hope to ban anyone who keeps it up after this post. Does there remain a General Question on the table? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2002, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-versions-of-10-commandments/109614/20 "2002-05-20T13:42:51Z")
manhattan: Actually, I think that the Pit is the appropriate place to respond to stockton’s comment. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=116121](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=116121) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2-versions-of-10-commandments/109614.md?page=2)