# 20 dead in Jeruselem **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 19, 2003, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271 "2003-08-19T20:13:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/21 "2003-08-20T23:25:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > My problem is when posters say, “You can’t condemn terrorism because you have to understand the terrorists’ POV.” " Oh, I agree that is a silly argument. Whatever the root cause ( useful to understand to help ameliorate or eliminate it ), in that regard terrorism is terrorism - the mere fact that it happens is enough to condemn it. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/22 "2003-08-20T23:32:22Z")
Hamas will cease to function when … A. The total destruction of Israel is complete. B. The total destruction of Hamas is complete. So how do we go about option B? ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2003, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/23 "2003-08-20T23:55:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tamerlane \* > \*\*Then again, I am in the “understand them, to better neutralize them” camp, which I know not everybody agrees with as a matter of strategy. > > - Tamerlane \*\* No, not everybody does. Good thing, too. A far more effective way of neutralizing terrorists is to kill them. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/24 "2003-08-21T00:04:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > A far more effective way of neutralizing terrorists is to kill them. I have no problem with that at all. But it is only one part of the battle. You also have to figure out how to neutralize recruitment. The deterrence of being killed isn’t always sufficient and terrorists can be be difficult to weed out, especially in any half-livable civil society, before they do damage. Always better to starve them out on both ends, by both eliminating active terrorists as the rabid animals they are and erode their base of support so they can’t replenish their number. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/25 "2003-08-21T00:17:27Z")
Yes, eroding the base of their support is key, they question is how? ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/26 "2003-08-21T00:26:03Z")
You want to know what I see it as? It’s like siblings fighting. A parent needs to step in. As long as both sides are left to do what they will. It will continue. I have no idea who the “parent” should be, but someone needs to grab both sides by the scruff of the neck and shake them good. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/27 "2003-08-21T01:11:08Z")
Let’s go find 20 members of Hamas, and blow THEM up… We can’t even just offer a place to stay for people who want the terrorists to stop, either. We can’t just set up huge shelters for those who want to be dissassociated with Hamas, because such shelters would become targets for Hamas. When a group says that they want nothing more than the utter destruction of another, how do you react? What possible REASONABLE reaction could you have other than the condemnation of the genocidal group? Turning away would be just a few steps below actively supporting the terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/28 "2003-08-21T01:16:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > > What the fuck do you do if you’re Israel? Appoint Mahmoud Abbas prime minister of Israel and the occupied territories with a coalition government that would include representives of the Palestinians. That way he could employ the resources of the Israeli army to full effect while negotiating within cabinet the terms by which the two peoples could live together. When Canada was faced with terrorism in the early seventies by the FLQ, (a French-Canadian organization employing violence to force a separate state for French-Canadians) our French-Canadian prime minister brought in the Canadian army to crush the terrorists. I don’t think we’ve had any terrorism from the French-Canadians ever since and that was about 30 years ago. [sub]The above comments are a result of grasping at straws[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/29 "2003-08-21T01:22:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tamerlane \* > \*\*Always better to starve them out on both ends, by both eliminating active terrorists as the rabid animals they are and erode their base of support so they can’t replenish their number. > > - Tamerlane \*\* I agree. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*Yes, eroding the base of their support is key, they question is how? \*\* Taking out Saddam, who was paying families of Palestinian terrorists something like $25,000 apiece, was one step, yes? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/30 "2003-08-21T02:13:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > \*\*Let’s go find 20 members of Hamas, and blow THEM up… > > We can’t even just offer a place to stay for people who want the terrorists to stop, either. We can’t just set up huge shelters for those who want to be dissassociated with Hamas, because such shelters would become targets for Hamas. > > When a group says that they want nothing more than the utter destruction of another, how do you react? What possible REASONABLE reaction could you have other than the condemnation of the genocidal group? Turning away would be just a few steps below actively supporting the terrorism. \*\* Great points. So either we Hamas is hit _hard_, or change has to be effected from within to marginalize the terror groups. I too am grasping at straws. Tough to make sense of a nonsensical situation. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/31 "2003-08-21T02:33:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > \*\*Let’s go find 20 members of Hamas, and blow THEM up… > > We can’t even just offer a place to stay for people who want the terrorists to stop, either. We can’t just set up huge shelters for those who want to be dissassociated with Hamas, because such shelters would become targets for Hamas. > > When a group says that they want nothing more than the utter destruction of another, how do you react? What possible REASONABLE reaction could you have other than the condemnation of the genocidal group? Turning away would be just a few steps below actively supporting the terrorism. \*\* Great points. So either we Hamas is hit _hard_, or change has to be effected from within to marginalize the terror groups. I too am grasping at straws. Tough to make sense of a nonsensical situation. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/32 "2003-08-21T03:26:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\*Taking out Saddam, who was paying families of Palestinian terrorists something like $25,000 apiece, was one step, yes? \*\* Yes. Don’t even go there People. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/33 "2003-08-21T03:29:45Z")
_Israel hit Hamas hard_😃 [sub]Must have been an American slip[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Alereon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Alereon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alereon)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/34 "2003-08-21T11:47:20Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by World Eater_ > **So either we Hamas is hit _hard_, or change has to be effected from within to marginalize the terror groups.** The fastest way to effect change is to end the conditions that cause the formation of such groups. Palestinians are a persecuted, oppressed minority within the occupied territories and Israel as a whole. Every time Israel goes in and kills a few civillians and bulldozes a few houses in an attempt to destroy terrorists, they create more terrorists. The immediate end to occupation, removal of settlements, granting of full civil rights to palestinians, and inclusion of Palestinians in Israeli government is the only way to stop fueling the hatred that results in atrocities like the one mentioned in the OP. Of course, that would be completely impossible given the current Israeli government, thus necessitating first a change of those in power. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/35 "2003-08-21T12:56:23Z")
OK, gobear, this will be the third time telling you this. Ieven in the pit, provise some cites. Who is going to come in here and defend Hamas? ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/36 "2003-08-21T13:03:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Israel had suspended what it calls targeted killings and what the Palestinians call assassinations during the cease-fire. But the Israeli security Cabinet decided late Wednesday to renew the practice, in response to the Jerusalem bombing, the deadliest since the launch of a U.S.-backed peace plan three months ago. More than 100 people were wounded in the blast, including about 40 children. from [http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030821/ap\_on\_re\_mi\_ea/israel\_palestinians&cid=540&ncid=716](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030821/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians&cid=540&ncid=716) ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/37 "2003-08-21T13:04:06Z")
Actually, I think I know what **gobear** was referring to: he made a typo where he inadvertantly likened all Palestinians to terrorists, and got jumped on in the Pit. But it was just a typo. Nobody was defending Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/38 "2003-08-21T13:11:49Z")
I can’t seem to replicate a report of 100 people injured anywhere, some reports say 5 people killed, some say three, some say at least 2 women. Details are sketchy, but at least that is where the reports of children dying could have started. > [@](#): > > My problem is when posters say, “You can’t condemn terrorism because you have to understand the terrorists’ POV.” Actually, it’s very easy to both condemn terrorism and understand why they are doing it. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/39 "2003-08-21T13:21:26Z")
From CNN [http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/21/mideast/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/21/mideast/index.html) Israel retaliated by killing a hamas leader and his 2 bodyguards. Bolding mine > [@](#): > > Witnesses in Gaza City spotted Israeli F-16 jets and Apache attack helicopters overhead, shortly before they fired at least three missiles at the vehicle. > > The three badly burned bodies were removed from the smoldering car by Palestinian bystanders. > > The Palestinian Authority condemned the missile strike in a statement from Information Minister Nabil Amr, who called the attack “irresponsible” and said Palestinian leaders would re-evaluate \*\*“the necessary steps taken to protect the Palestinian people.” \*\* I don’t see anywhere where civilians died here. I guess they are just paying lip service? ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/40 "2003-08-21T13:21:35Z")
Well you know, as shitty as the film “Independance Day” truly was, it did in fact bear a salient point when it showed both the Israeil Air Force and the Saudi Air Force fighting side by side against a common enemy. Sadly, the premise was firmly based in science fiction - namely that we, all of us, were being attacked by Aliens. But it raises an interesting point, does it not? That is, when push comes to shove, we are, all of us, well we’re all the same, really aren’t we? Sadly, it’s a curse of human nature that given the right circumstances that we can lose sight of the forest for all the trees. And in this context, the single biggest problem involved isn’t religion - nor is it the USA supporting Israel. Ultimately, it’s tribalism at it’s ugliest. One tribe thinks they own the land. Another tribe thinks, no, THEY own the land. And they’re both prepared to perform any obscenity necessary to enforce said claims to said land. For those of us who would despair at the deteriorating situation, yes, it’s a tragic realisation that things would indeed seem to be veering inexorably from bad to worse - given the last 3 years in retrospect. I’m probably guilty of sounding like some sort of “pie in the sky” idealist, but it seems to me that the simplest way of diffusing tribalism is to (a) one tribe totally performing genocide on the other (which given that Israel could probably do it shows that overall they tend to show restraint) or (b) that both tribes consciously work towards forever doing away with the inequities in living standards between the two tribes - thus resulting in a perception that they are ultimately all the same. I’m a lucky guy… I live in a lovely safe home on the waterfront down here in Queensland, Australia and each morning I see the inshore dolphins swim past. But also, I’m a caring guy too - and it breaks my heart that a part of the Middle East, which in theory should be a wonderfully vital and prosperous part of Europe, is seemingly hell bent on destroying itself. Tribalism. It’s the ugliest flaw in human nature. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271.md?page=3)