# 20 dead in Jeruselem **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 19, 2003, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271 "2003-08-19T20:13:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/41 "2003-08-21T13:59:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*I can’t seem to replicate a report of 100 people injured anywhere, some reports say 5 people killed, some say three, some say at least 2 women. > > Details are sketchy, but at least that is where the reports of children dying could have started. > \*\* Well, from the Jerusalem Post (Registration needed), here’s the list…20 dead, 6 of them children [http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1061350051488](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1061350051488) And from the article that goes with that list: > [@](#): > > A Palestinian suicide bomber disguised as an Orthodox Jew boarded a packed Jerusalem bus in central Jerusalem and blew himself up, killing 20 people, including at least six children, and wounding over 100 others in the Tuesday night bombing. So there’s a second source for the 100 wounded. [http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1061438426187](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1061438426187) ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/42 "2003-08-21T14:19:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*From CNN > > [http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/21/mideast/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/21/mideast/index.html) > > Israel retaliated by killing a hamas leader and his 2 bodyguards. > > Bolding mine > > I don’t see anywhere where civilians died here. I guess they are just paying lip service? \*\* In all fairness, this is the first time that no innocents were killed as part of an Israeli Missile raid. While I would rather they arrested terror subjects and brought them to justice, or even the PA did that, I feel the IDF were very lucky that it was only the 3 casualties. firing 3-5 missiles at a car in a busy road isn’t exactly pinpoint targetting. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/43 "2003-08-21T14:23:41Z")
CA, It appears that I read the Yahoo article wrong. I thought it referred to the missile strike. Mea Cupla. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/44 "2003-08-21T14:24:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \* > Sadly, it’s a curse of human nature that given the right circumstances that we can lose sight of the forest for all the trees. And in this context, the single biggest problem involved isn’t religion - nor is it the USA supporting Israel. Ultimately, it’s tribalism at it’s ugliest. One tribe thinks they own the land. Another tribe thinks, no, THEY own the land. \*\*And they’re both prepared to perform any obscenity necessary to enforce said claims to said land. > \*\* (bolding mine) **Boo Boo Foo** - I must say that I object to your claiming a parity between Israeli and palestinian actions. A Palestinian terrorist murdered INNOCENT, CIVILIAN WOMEN AND CHILDREN - MURDER FOR THE SAKE OF MURDER (yes, I’m screaming!) in retaliation to what similar deed (purposeful murder of women and children with nary a legitimate target in sight - murder for the sake of murder)? And Israel retaliated - by going in and murdering innocent civilians, right? NOT - we responded by taking out a HAMAS MILITARY LEADER. To which they now say they will retaliate by murdering more civilians. NOT a parallel situation! ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/45 "2003-08-21T14:32:23Z")
Noone Special, they didn’t murder anyone innocent this time, but they have on plenty of other occasions. On those occasions do you feel it was correct to murder innocents just so they could kill their target? ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/46 "2003-08-21T14:35:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\* > > What the fuck do you do if you’re Israel? \*\* My personal choice would be to move. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/47 "2003-08-21T14:43:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Noone Special \* > \*\*(bolding mine) > > **Boo Boo Foo** - I must say that I object to your claiming a parity between Israeli and palestinian actions. A Palestinian terrorist murdered INNOCENT, CIVILIAN WOMEN AND CHILDREN - MURDER FOR THE SAKE OF MURDER (yes, I’m screaming!) in retaliation to what similar deed (purposeful murder of women and children with nary a legitimate target in sight - murder for the sake of murder)? > And Israel retaliated - by going in and murdering innocent civilians, right? NOT - we responded by taking out a HAMAS MILITARY LEADER. To which they now say they will retaliate by murdering more civilians. > > NOT a parallel situation! \*\* The first attacks by Palestinians towards Jews goes all the way back to 1929 at the Wailing Wall. Apparently 1200 odd people died. Ever since then it’s been a tit for tat cycle of recrimination, war, land grabs, disenfranchisements, and terror attacks - by both sides. Some more stealthy than others, but both sides have got shitloads of blood on their hands. Spare me the partisanship, please. No side has the right to claim the high moral ground. It’s all bad. It’s all ugly. It’s all wrong. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/48 "2003-08-21T14:45:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*In all fairness, this is the first time that no innocents were killed as part of an Israeli Missile raid. While I would rather they arrested terror subjects and brought them to justice, or even the PA did that, I feel the IDF were very lucky that it was only the 3 casualties. firing 3-5 missiles at a car in a busy road isn’t exactly pinpoint targetting. \*\* Agreed. I think the only justice for them _is_ death, but that would do more harm then good. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/49 "2003-08-21T15:00:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Noone Special \* > \*\*(bolding mine) > > **Boo Boo Foo** - I must say that I object to your claiming a parity between Israeli and palestinian actions. A Palestinian terrorist murdered INNOCENT, CIVILIAN WOMEN AND CHILDREN - MURDER FOR THE SAKE OF MURDER (yes, I’m screaming!) in retaliation to what similar deed (purposeful murder of women and children with nary a legitimate target in sight - murder for the sake of murder)? > And Israel retaliated - by going in and murdering innocent civilians, right? NOT - we responded by taking out a HAMAS MILITARY LEADER. To which they now say they will retaliate by murdering more civilians. > > NOT a parallel situation! \*\* But the thing is though Israel has killed far more innocent Palestinians during the intifada than Palestinians have killed innocent Israelis (infact the total number of Palestinian minors killed is just about the same as the total number of Israelis killed in suicide bombings) so the results worse. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/50 "2003-08-21T15:06:32Z")
Where are these numbers coming from? ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/51 "2003-08-21T15:21:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*they didn’t murder anyone innocent this time, but they have on plenty of other occasions. On those occasions do you feel it was correct to murder innocents just so they could kill their target? \*\* Two points: 1. Though you appear to refuse to see it, there **is** a difference between [ul] a. Wanton murder of civilians with no intent to hit anything remotely resembling a military target and b. Innocent bystanders killed when a legitimate target is hit while attempting to hide behind human shields [/ul] 2. Israel routinely uses helicopter gunships to launch missiles at leading terrorist targets **instead of using far more effective warplanes with high explosive bombs** , since, the one time we used a bomb because we (erringly) believed there were no civilian “shields” nearby, 14 civilians got killed, which has caused Israel to STOP using warplanes - exactly because we always try to avoid hurting bystanders as much as possible. By the way - using helicopters also gives the target time to hear/see them, and if they are alert, they sometimes manage to get out of the car and run for cover - so its crappy strategy as well as lower kill-power. Another BTW - the pilots are instructed to dump the missiles someplace unoccupied if they see the car being abandoned after firing (and have time to do so) - also in order to avoid unecessary casualties. Don’t ask me for a cite - personal knowledge (probably breaking several laws by divulging this - but I really think I must) Your question is very difficult ot answer, and is in fact a major debate point among Israelis. Should we completely avoid hitting terrorist leaders because they hide behind human shields? Or must we accept that we will end up killing innocents in the cases where we can pinpoint and shoot at the terrorists? Squarely between the horns of the dillema. But at least, either way you look at it, we try to hurt **as few** civilans as possible, not **as many** as possible, as the palestinians do. The way I see it, the Palestinian _modus operandi_ has **zero** morality, while our actions are, granted, in a grey area (although I honestly think that the planners really try to minimize the carnage) - but we just can’t let the terrorist leaders get away, literally, with murder. Sorry for being so long-winded. Do you still honestly think the situation is really identical on both sides? That intentions are identical? Dan Abarbanel ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/52 "2003-08-21T15:22:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*What the fuck do you do if you’re Israel? \*\* The greatest and most exceptional thing Israel could do now is nothing. No retaliation. No more murders. The only way to break a spiralling cycle of tit-for-tat killings and murders is for one of the involved parties to take the (unprecedented) step of holding up its hands and saying _“Enough. No more.”_ This stance, I believe, will have to come initially from Israel. Violence only begets more violence, and Israel are the ‘side’ most capable of making the first step. Of course, this is much easier said than done and it will be a hell of a tough sell in light of this horrible attack. It would be a huge step, a lot to swallow, but is the only decision which can, perhaps, get the Road Map back on the table. Terrible times indeed. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/53 "2003-08-21T15:29:13Z")
> [@](#): > > **But at least, either way you look at it, we try to hurt as few civilans as possible, not as many as possible, as the palestinians do.** And yet there are more dead Palestinian civilians. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/54 "2003-08-21T15:29:13Z")
B’Tselem the Israeli human rights group Palestinian minors killed in the OTs since start of the intifada: 388 Israeli’s killed by Palestinians within Israel: 348 (I’ve added the victims of the bus -bombing myself, as the list is correct to 13th August only) A further 190 Israeli civilians have been killed in the occupied territories About 2,103 Palestinian civilians in total have been killed in the occupied territories, the number who weren’t militants is hard to ascertain but 50%-60% is a conservative estimate. [http://www.btselem.org/](http://www.btselem.org/) ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/55 "2003-08-21T15:31:41Z")
Apologies for my previous response which was based on a misreading of the OP as _“What the fuck do you do if you’re **IN** Israel?”_ No suggestions (or real interest in) what Israel should do on a personal or political level. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/56 "2003-08-21T15:36:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aro \* > \*\*The greatest and most exceptional thing Israel could do now is nothing. No retaliation. No more murders. > \*\* I would tend to agree with you - although my blood is still simmering (cooled down from the boiling point it was at yesterday) - if I thought that there were any chance that non-reaction would do anything other than convince the terrorists that they can get away with it. Unfortunately, I’m afraid that you are unrealistically idealistic and optimistic. Not ragging you, I know you mean well, but we’ve tried restraint in the past, and have reaped more violence in return. I wish it were not so. Dan Abarbanel ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/57 "2003-08-21T15:36:31Z")
**Noone Special** , question for you: Is it more morally defensible to allow the guilty to go free than to risk further deaths? Is the avoidance of (the possibility of) killing civilians not more important than punishing the ‘guilty’? In NI we had a similar situation: one of the major steps towards peace was the [release of the guilty](http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/learning/history/stateapart/agreement/policing/prisoners1.shtml) from prison. It stuck in everyone’s throats at the time but was a major catalyst in getting the peace process that extra step forward. It was worth it to keep the peace, to stop the continuation of murders. I believe punishing the guilty is a secondary action to the protection of innocent lives. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/58 "2003-08-21T15:39:04Z")
> [@](#): > > although I honestly think that the planners really try to minimize the carnage Firing missiles into a apartment block is minimising carnage? I’m sorry, I can’t accept that. the IDF are less concerned with civillian casualties than they are with getting their target. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/59 "2003-08-21T15:44:32Z")
In addition to what **Aro** has said, another reason that Israel is the beleagured country that is the only one that can take this noble and unpopular step: even if Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa et al stopped their terror, or if Arafat suddenly grew a halo and decided to hand over total power to Abbas, who cracked down on every single terrorist and miltant in the whole of the OTs, it would still only take one Palestinian asshole with a bomb to fuck things up again. So far, and thank God, there are few Israeli “terrorists” to contribute to the mayhem. Israel’s actions are still controlled by the government. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/60 "2003-08-21T16:03:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aro \* > **Noone Special, question for you: > Is it more morally defensible to allow the guilty to go free than to risk further deaths? Is the avoidance of (the possibility of) killing civilians not more important than punishing the ‘guilty’?** You are forgetting that we are targeting TERRORIST LEADERSHIP - thereby foiling further terrorist action against Israelis, and saving Israeli lives. So when innocent Palestinians are killed in the process, we are essentially trading their lives for the lives of Israeli innocents that are thus saved. Not exactly a moral pinnacle, but far from plain “killing the innocent along with guilty” as you (simplistically, I think) put it. Sort of like accident-proofing one less mile of road in order to finance cancer research - playing god and choosing who lives and who dies. Awful, but not evil. And yes, if I have to choose who dies, I **will** save my own at the expense of innocents in my enemy’s camp. Sorry, that’s just the way it is. > [@](#): > > \*\* > In NI we had a similar situation: one of the major steps towards peace was the [release of the guilty](http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/learning/history/stateapart/agreement/policing/prisoners1.shtml) from prison. \*\* Well, that’s what we **were** doing when the latest attrocity was unleashed on us. As well as handing over several West Bank cities back to PA responsibility. We all know what the Palestinian reaction to this was. Back to the drawing board ☹ > [@](#): > > \*\* I believe punishing the guilty is a secondary action to the protection of innocent lives. YMMV. \*\* As I said above, I think this is overly simplistic. Dan Abarbanel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271.md?page=4)