# 20 dead in Jeruselem **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 19, 2003, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271 "2003-08-19T20:13:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/81 "2003-08-21T19:05:20Z")
> [@](#): > > There’s no indication at all that the Hamas leadership surround themsleves with civilians, I mean what do you expect to find in a civilian area? Read that again, MC. I claim: Hamas surrounds themselves with civilians. You state: Hamas leaders go to civilian areas. I ask: What the fuck is the difference? ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/82 "2003-08-21T19:10:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > \*\*Read that again, MC. > > I claim: Hamas surrounds themselves with civilians. > > You state: Hamas leaders go to civilian areas. > > I ask: What the fuck is the difference? \*\* Well where else do they go then? It’s not necessarily through choice as you seem to say, the problem is Palestinian civilians are only allowed in a few small areas and moving between these areas usually takes many hours. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/83 "2003-08-21T19:11:23Z")
_Of course_ Hamsas surrounds itself with civilians. That’s covered in the first week of Terror 101 ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/84 "2003-08-21T19:13:46Z")
Do you think that the British government should sent apache helicopters and bomb the Falls Rd, for example? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/85 "2003-08-21T19:17:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MC Master of Ceremonies \* > \*\*Well where else do they go then? It’s not necessarily through choice as you seem to say, the problem is Palestinian civilians are only allowed in a few small areas and moving between these areas usually takes many hours. \*\* Even if they had more freedom of movement, they would do exactly what they do now. It’s not like they would go headquarter in the ‘industrial zone’ (I’m thinking Robocop for some reason), so they would draw the heat and spare lives. These people want maximum carnage, and nothing less. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/86 "2003-08-21T19:26:02Z")
That’s very subjective. Yes I agree the current tatics are used to maximize carange, but Isreal must give them another option because they don’t have Apache helicopters, it must show willingness to offer a fair deal (For example the recent removal of some of the illegal settlememnts was more to do with media relations with the outside world than to show the Palestinians they menat peace as now most of those that have been removed have re-placed but with more permanent structures. Also Israel is still expanding it’s larger settlements) and must also recognize that a permanent peace can only come once it withdraws from the occupied territories and while Israel is occupying their land the Palestinians will always fight back whether in a legitimate or illegitimate way. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/87 "2003-08-21T19:50:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MC Master of Ceremonies \* > \*\*There’s no indication at all that the Hamas leadership surround themsleves with civilians, I mean what do you expect to find in a civilian area? civilians that’s what. Most Palestinians especially in Gaza Strip are ghettoized into small areas… \*\* And the reason that the IDF is currently looking for terrorist leadership **in the qasbah in Shkhem (Nablus)** is … ? (Hint: “They are looking in the wrong place” is NOT the correct answer) This is even if I let ride the argument about the ability to avoid civilian areas in the Gaza Strip. Dan Abarbanel ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/88 "2003-08-21T20:02:23Z")
Yes, but where else do you think Hamas are going to base themselves, how long would they last if they started to build camps out in the country? The point is that there’s no credibilty to the claim that they delibrately surround themselves with civilians, it’s just an attempt to excuse the lax attitude that the IDF has to Palestinian civilian life. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/89 "2003-08-21T20:13:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MC Master of Ceremonies \* > \*\*Yes, but where else do you think Hamas are going to base themselves, how long would they last if they started to build camps out in the country? The point is that there’s no credibilty to the claim that they delibrately surround themselves with civilians, it’s just an attempt to excuse the lax attitude that the IDF has to Palestinian civilian life. \*\* Y’know, I think you’re right. It’s not that they don’t mind blowing up **Israeli** civilians. They just don’t mind civilians being blown up, period. Equal Opportunity takes on a whole new meaning… Dan Abarbanel ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/90 "2003-08-21T20:14:48Z")
“They” = Hamas, not IDF Dan Abarbanel ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/91 "2003-08-21T20:18:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MC Master of Ceremonies \* > \*\*Yes, but where else do you think Hamas are going to base themselves, how long would they last if they started to build camps out in the country? The point is that there’s no credibilty to the claim that they delibrately surround themselves with civilians, it’s just an attempt to excuse the lax attitude that the IDF has to Palestinian civilian life. \*\* Well yes it’s a survival tactic no doubt, but it also offers them the best of both worlds. Hiding in a crowd makes you tougher to find, and when you’re found, tougher to kill. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/92 "2003-08-21T20:22:16Z")
There are certainly a small group of extremists on both sides that rub their hands with glee when innocents on there own side get killed as they see it as a propaganda victory and an oppurtunity to push their own agenda. Ssomeone I know out there saw an Israeli borderguard beating a Palestinian and he siad to them (the person I know) “perhaps if I beat him hard enough he’ll go out an do a suicide bombing” (This was right at the beginning of the PA-Israel ceasefire), conversely I am sure there are members of Hamas and IJ who are delight in every Palestinian death and are very happy with the collapse of the ceasfire: [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle\_east/3170115.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3170115.stm) ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/93 "2003-08-21T21:39:11Z")
Israel you have my greatest sympathy. Though I can only speak for myself, as a European I like to think that you have much greater understanding from the general public that from what is evident from the political elite and (often state controlled) media. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by atticus_ > yes, but the IRA also knew when it was time for a cease fire to stick. Do you think there would be peace in N. Ire. if the IRA kept right on with the bombings while their political wing was proclaiming otherwise? Hamas seems utterly bloodthirsty and senseless and the fact that right-minded Palestinians haven’t come forward to condemn them shows they either don’t exist, are cowardly, or are clueless. Also I hardly think the IRA ever had as a goal the complete annihilation of England, while Hamas’s (and Islamic Jihad as well if I’m not mistaken) ultimate goal is just that for Israel; annihilation. The analogy doesn’t hold water. The IRA was many things, but fired up by religious fanaticism was not one of them. (They also had a way cooler accent 🙂 ) Hamas (et al.) has been waging a dirty war also against its own people, killing many who dared to oppose them (calling them spies). I think there are many “right-minded Palestinians”, but they’ve been cowered by Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other extremist groupings. > [@](#): > > **BBC:** > Reuters quoted Khaled al-Batesh, an Islamic Jihad official as saying that “by assassinating Abu Shanab, Sharon ended the truce and announced its death.” Curious definition of truce Islamic Jihad has, that allow them to slaughter women and children. > [@](#): > > **BBC:** > Abu Mazen said it would affect a decision by the Palestinian Authority to disarm Palestinian militants and arrest those behind the Jerusalem suicide bombing. I had hopes that Abu Mazen would do something about the terrorists, now it seems it’s just more of the same. He will hold his hand over them or avoid taking any effective steps to hold them back. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mi...ast/3170115.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mi...ast/3170115.stm) Rune ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/94 "2003-08-21T23:32:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > \*\*What tactic do you recommend when your target deliberately surrounds himself with “civilians” specifically to avoid being targeted? It’s called “realism”, Twisty. You can’t sprinkle flowers everywhere and hope it’ll pull everyone together to sing Kumbayah. When you’re dealing with an enemy that will accept nothing less than your total and utter destruction, you CANNOT pull any punches, no matter how many butterflies you have fluttering about in your Disneyesque view of the universe. \*\* go fuck yourself spoofe. which side are killing civillians? both of them. if they are so sure who these people are, arrest them. If your local police force just went out and fired a fucking missile into a apartment building in Canada because they suspected a criminal was living there, you would be in uproar. why is it acceptable for Israel to do it? of course, just tow the fucking line that Israel can do no wrong. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/95 "2003-08-22T11:17:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by atticus \* > \*\*yes, but the IRA also knew when it was time for a cease fire to stick. Do you think there would be peace in N. Ire. if the IRA kept right on with the bombings while their political wing was proclaiming otherwise? Hamas seems utterly bloodthirsty and senseless and the fact that right-minded Palestinians haven’t come forward to condemn them shows they either don’t exist, are cowardly, or are clueless. \*\* Yeah but the thing is that while the IRA has held it’s ceasefire other Republican groups have not. The Real IRA The Continuity IRA etc. have bombed London, killed several army members in NI, bombed several army and police targets in NI including the worst single event in the troubles at Omagh. The British Gov. held firm and stayed on course for peace. Lots of work still has to be done but NI has changed for the better. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/96 "2003-08-22T19:00:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*go fuck yourself spoofe. \*\* While this **is** in the Pit, this thread had heretofore actually been rather polite and respectful, given the nature of the topic under discussion. I wish we could keep it this way > [@](#): > > \*\*which side are killing civillians? both of them. if they are so sure who these people are, arrest them. If your local police force just went out and fired a fucking missile into a apartment building in Canada because they suspected a criminal was living there, you would be in uproar. why is it acceptable for Israel to do it? > \*\* Gaza is under **Palestinian** control. We have been asking, begging, demanding that the PA do exactly what you suggest should be done - go in and arrest the bastard. But noooooo… lots of words by Abu Mazen (Abbas), but no action. So we have no choice but to take action ourselves. Now Israeli troops ARE NOT stationed in Gaza. We have NO military/police presence there. So the only way for us to get at the terrorist leaders that the PA refuses to do anything about is using a “long arm” - in this case anti-armor missiles from helicopter gunships (you prefer that we use High Explosive 1/2 ton bombs from fighter planes?) Please stop comparing apples and oranges ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/97 "2003-08-22T19:09:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > If your local police force just went out and fired a fucking missile into **a apartment building** in Canada because they suspected a criminal was living there, you would be in uproar. > > (Bolding mine - syntax your’s :)) **Twist** , I have already called you on your claim that the latest attack in Gaza was against an apartment block - it was on the late and unlamented Abu Shanab’s [vehicle](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/21/mideast/index.html). Please get your facts straight - especially after being corrected once already. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271/98 "2003-08-22T21:20:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*go fuck yourself spoofe. which side are killing civillians? both of them. if they are so sure who these people are, arrest them. If your local police force just went out and fired a fucking missile into a apartment building in Canada because they suspected a criminal was living there, you would be in uproar. why is it acceptable for Israel to do it? > > . \*\* Bad analogy. My local police force has an obligation to protect me, the citizen, first. The IDF has an obligation to protect Israeli citizens first, itself second, and Palestinian civilians third - if at all. It’s not a question of morality, it’s a question of what your job is. The Israeli military was given a certain mandate, and it doesn’t infvolve being fair, objective or nice. Besides, an army isn’t the same as a police force. They have two completely different - even opposite - jobs to do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-dead-in-jeruselem/196271.md?page=4)