# 20 Million Tons of Junk Headed For Hawaii-Is Japan Liable? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 27, 2011, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958 "2011-10-27T12:35:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/21 "2011-10-28T03:33:12Z")
It seems like that lumber could be salvaged, dried, and sent to a pulp mill. For paper or wood chip products such as OSB. Respect for any remains that are found would be essential. I can’t see any reason to leave the lumber to pollute the sea. ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/22 "2011-10-28T04:01:38Z")
> [@Reverend\_Meade](#): > > I’m going to have to agree. I find the OP kind of offensive. I’m having a hard time putting the exact level of offense into words. It’s not “you’re a horrible person bad”, but regardless, ralph124c you should be ashamed of yourself. Well, I am going against the grain on this one and suggest that Ralph124c has a legitimate question. It might be sad and awkward, by why should the millions of dollars it is going to cost to clean up this mess be the US taxpayers problem or the problem of home owners where the pile lands? I will agree that the Japanese people didn’t throw the stuff into the ocean, but I can tell you that if high winds knock over my garbage can, split the bag and deposit the contents in my neighbors yard I am not going to look the other way and declare it his problem. Yeah, I didn’t put the garbage there and didn’t intend for it to land in his yard but I am certainly going over there to clean it up. The “right” thing to do is the Japanese government find a way to not make this another’s problem. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/23 "2011-10-28T04:16:22Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > Well, I am going against the grain on this one and suggest that Ralph124c has a legitimate question. It might be sad and awkward, by why should the millions of dollars it is going to cost to clean up this mess be the US taxpayers problem or the problem of home owners where the pile lands? I will agree that the Japanese people didn’t throw the stuff into the ocean, but I can tell you that if high winds knock over my garbage can, split the bag and deposit the contents in my neighbors yard I am not going to look the other way and declare it his problem. Yeah, I didn’t put the garbage there and didn’t intend for it to land in his yard but I am certainly going over there to clean it up. > > The “right” thing to do is the Japanese government find a way to not make this another’s problem. If you trash can was blown over by high winds killing landing on and killing your daughter, then your neighbor had the nerve to demand payment for the spilled trash he’d be a douche-bag. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/24 "2011-10-28T06:18:36Z")
Yeah, it would tasteless if your neighbour had the nerve to demand payment if your daughter had been killed once, but if your daughter had been killed twice it would be downright rude. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/25 "2011-10-28T06:20:04Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > It seems like that lumber could be salvaged, dried, and sent to a pulp mill. For paper or wood chip products such as OSB. The market for salt soaked lumber is vanishingly small. And lumber is not exactly the worst form of pollutant. It’s wood. Vegetation. Fertiliser. Only a short to medium term problem. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/26 "2011-10-28T06:33:11Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > Well, I am going against the grain on this one and suggest that Ralph124c has a legitimate question. It might be sad and awkward, by why should the millions of dollars it is going to cost to clean up this mess… What this and the OP are tacitly assuming, however, is that when the debris washes ashore it will look mostly like it does today and land in huge piles. I find that hard to believe. Over the two or more years it will take for the debris to cross it will disperse so that it comes ashore across a wide band of coastline and over a wide time frame. While any one spot will likely receive enough so that they may notice a small change in flotsam washing up, I really doubt they will have entire Japanese houses landing in Oregon. If you look at [this simulation run](http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/04/07/article-1374520-0B86FCD300000578-177_634x447.jpg), you can see that at year 3, the leading edge of the flotsam stream is just getting to the West Coast while the central bulk is still hundreds of miles offshore and the tail stretches back past the Hawaiian Islands. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/27 "2011-10-28T06:41:15Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I’m curious, Ralph. Under what legal theory do you think that Japan would be liable for this debris? (It seems to me that Japan didn’t deliberately dump this stuff in the ocean; it was entirely due to the earthquake and tsunami.) You’re an optimist. If this goes like the vast majority of **ralph124c** ’s GQ threads, you’ll never see him again in this conversation. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/28 "2011-10-28T06:52:03Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The enormous debris filed from the March tsunami is now poised to **hit Hawaiin beaches in a few months**. > > \ > > **California shold start receiving this dreck in about 1.5-2 years.** Emphasis mine. > [@](#): > > Maximenko and fellow researcher Jan Hafner predicted in April – using computer models developed from observations of how buoys drift in the ocean – that some of the debris that the tsunami carried away would reach the **Hawaiian islands by 2013**. > > [Source](http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/26/tsunami-debris-at-hawaii-by-2013-researchers-seek-more-precision/) and > [@](#): > > According to Maximenko’s calculations, the debris from the tsunami will wash up at Midway Attol (an island midway between Japan and Hawaii) this winter. **It will start washing up on Hawaiian shores in the winter or spring of 2013.** And in the beginning of 2014, it will hit the West Coast, mostly Oregon and Washington. **(California will most likely be spared.)** > > [Source](http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2011/10/up-20-millions-tons-of-debris-headed-for-american-shores-in-2014.html) A Google news search with the terms **tsunami debris hawaii** turns up plenty of other sources with similar information. Predictably enough, the factual assertions in **ralph** ’s OP turn out to be way off the mark, most likely the product of some vaguely-remembered thing that he read at some unspecified time in the past, and that he’s now decided to tug the SDMB’s sleeve about, for no discernible purpose. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/29 "2011-10-28T07:19:01Z")
I asked a legitimate question. Ships that dump garbage at sea (that washes ashore) have been identified and fined by coast guards, so why not Japan? Suppose a local fishery is destroyed by toxic junk from Japan? Who is liable for the damages? Remember the famous “garbage barge” that left LI NY (intended to be towed to Mexico)? It wound up traveling around the coasts-no dumps would accept it. So Japan does bear some responsibility for its trash and junk. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/30 "2011-10-28T07:36:56Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I asked a legitimate question. Ships that dump garbage at sea (that washes ashore) have been identified and fined by coast guards, so why not Japan? > Suppose a local fishery is destroyed by toxic junk from Japan? Who is liable for the damages? > Remember the famous “garbage barge” that left LI NY (intended to be towed to Mexico)? It wound up traveling around the coasts-no dumps would accept it. > So Japan does bear some responsibility for its trash and junk. One question: Do you understand what the word “dump” means? ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/31 "2011-10-28T08:22:54Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I asked a legitimate question. Ships that dump garbage at sea (that washes ashore) have been identified and fined by coast guards, so why not Japan? > So Japan does bear some responsibility for its trash and junk. Japan would like to apologize profusely to you, we have just enacted a law that says that every single item in the country must now be permanently attached to the ground by heavy steel chains so that in the case of a future devastating earthquake and tsunami we will not mildly inconvenience our neighbors on the other side of the pacific ocean. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/32 "2011-10-28T10:58:51Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Japan would like to apologize profusely to you, we have just enacted a law that says that every single item in the country must now be permanently attached to the ground by heavy steel chains so that in the case of a future devastating earthquake and tsunami we will not mildly inconvenience our neighbors on the other side of the pacific ocean. Firstly, I’m greatly amused by someone named “coremelt” posting about the Japanese disaster. Second, would it have killed the Daily Mail to put some units in those charts? Are those axes latitude and longitude? Is California at 230 degrees East? Thirdly, if the Japanese have to pay for cleaning up ocean debris surely every country would have to pay for other pollution (air and water) affecting other countries. That ought to be a simple matter to sort out. ---
**Author:** ![JustinC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justinc/32/8083_2.png) [@JustinC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustinC)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/33 "2011-10-28T13:41:04Z")
I’d like to think Japan’s wishes would be acknowledged in this matter, in respect of the 15,800 souls lost in the 9.0 magnitude quake. With their strict building codes, over 1,000 seismometers and early warning system they had done everything they could to mitigate the damage, but a quake releasing 600 million times the energy of the Hiroshima bomb, moving the country by 2.4 meters and shifting the Earth’s axis will cause unintended effects. To go after damages because of this tragedy sounds like adding an insult to their injury. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/34 "2011-10-28T14:06:04Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I asked a legitimate question. Ships that dump garbage at sea (that washes ashore) have been identified and fined by coast guards, so why not Japan? To be completely explicit, the difference is that the ships that dumped garbage at sea did so deliberately and knowingly in violation of laws prohibiting it. The debris from Japan, on the other hand, was washed into the sea as a result of the earthquake and tsunami. No one in Japan deliberately threw that stuff into the ocean. Is that clear? ---
**Author:** ![Reverend\_Meade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Reverend\_Meade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reverend_Meade)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/35 "2011-10-28T14:25:53Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I asked a legitimate question. No. No you didn’t. > [@ralph124c](#): > > Ships that dump garbage at sea (that washes ashore) have been identified and fined by coast guards, so why not Japan? If you really have to ask this, then I have no respect for you as a human being. > [@ralph124c](#): > > Suppose a local fishery is destroyed by toxic junk from Japan? Who is liable for the damages? No one. Not everything is someones fault. > [@ralph124c](#): > > Remember the famous “garbage barge” that left LI NY (intended to be towed to Mexico)? It wound up traveling around the coasts-no dumps would accept it. Wasn’t old enough, but I know what you talking about. It’s such a non sequitar that I’m clueless as to why you bring it up. > [@ralph124c](#): > > So Japan does bear some responsibility for its trash and junk. THIS IS NOT TRASH AND JUNK! THESE ARE THE REMAINS OF THEIR HOMES AND THE BODIES OF THEIR RELATIVES! Do really not understand this? Are you honestly this clueless? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/36 "2011-10-28T14:43:18Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I asked a legitimate question. Ships that dump garbage at sea (that washes ashore) have been identified and fined by coast guards, so why not Japan? > Suppose a local fishery is destroyed by toxic junk from Japan? Who is liable for the damages? > Remember the famous “garbage barge” that left LI NY (intended to be towed to Mexico)? It wound up traveling around the coasts-no dumps would accept it. > So Japan does bear some responsibility for its trash and junk. You haven’t established that. You need to spend a few minutes and actually read up on what happened, because you appear to be under the impression that the Japanese people demolished their houses and threw the wreckage into the ocean as a big fuck-you to America. To help you along the way, the wreckage is the result of a tsunami. It’s a big wave that smashes stuff and then rolls back out to sea. Do you understand that now? You should be able to work out the blame equation in your head now that you have the correct information. I appreciate the chance to fight your ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Moonlitherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Moonlitherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlitherial)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/37 "2011-10-28T15:06:08Z")
Wait, wait, if we take this back to the original cause - the epicentre of the quake - is that in international waters or is it claimed by some country. Maybe we should be readdressing the bill for both the clean up AND Japan’s rebuilding. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/38 "2011-10-28T15:18:44Z")
Whew! First of all, there are nlikely to be any bodies in the debris field. Second, there is precednce for this. Third: what if the junk is radioactive too? Does Japan/TEPCO have any obligation to pay for cleaning this up? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/39 "2011-10-28T15:34:04Z")
What “precednce” is there for this? (Not the ships dumping their garbage at sea. As was said, that’s a deliberate act which this is not.) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/40 "2011-10-28T15:35:46Z")
What precedent? Did the residents of Java sue the Krakatoans for noise pollution? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958.md?page=3)