# 20 Million Tons of Junk Headed For Hawaii-Is Japan Liable? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 27, 2011, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958 "2011-10-27T12:35:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![fifty-six](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@fifty-six](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fifty-six)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/61 "2011-12-23T08:59:45Z")
Who does the stuff belong to? If it has no obvious value then clean it up and dispose of it properly. What happens if it is valuble? Or Japan’s property? Are there moral only issues or is there international law. Does this apply to only governemt property or personal as well? Just to make sure. I am severly against the suggestion of Japan having to pay or help or even feel bad for the results of the tsunami outside of Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/62 "2011-12-23T11:23:09Z")
> [@JustinC](#): > > But yeah, some trash on the beach is the real concern here I can just see the Japanese, as the tsunami approached, destroying all in its path thinking: “OMG, just think of how the debris from this might someday briefly spoil the view from prime malibu beach properties. It may even lead to the cancellation of a beach party!” ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/63 "2011-12-23T12:00:15Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > It seems like that lumber could be salvaged, dried, and sent to a pulp mill. For paper or wood chip products such as OSB. > > Respect for any remains that are found would be essential. I can’t see any reason to leave the lumber to pollute the sea. There’s actually a small industry in the Great Lakes that finds and “harvests” lumber that’s been floating around the Lakes for decades. It’s not pulped, though, it’s turned into furniture and veneers. Apparently, floating around in water like that for a long time results in desirable characteristics. I could see some enterprising group salvaging the ocean lumber. ---
**Author:** ![Turek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turek/32/18782_2.png) [@Turek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turek)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/64 "2011-12-23T13:49:22Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There’s actually a small industry in the Great Lakes that finds and “harvests” lumber that’s been floating around the Lakes for decades. It’s not pulped, though, it’s turned into furniture and veneers. Apparently, floating around in water like that for a long time results in desirable characteristics. > > I could see some enterprising group salvaging the ocean lumber. The wood salvaged from the Great Lakes is not wood that’s floating around; it’s wood that’s sunk to the bottom. And a large part of it’s value is that it’s the original, old-growth timber that was harvested from the original forests in the area. The quality of this timber when it was first cut down is a lot higher than the timber that is cut now. I believe it has survived at the bottom of the lakes without rotting because of the cold temperatures and low oxygen content of the water. So, although some lumber in the flotsam from Japan _might_ be salvageable (I don’t know what effect the salt water would have on it), it’s not comparable to the timber salvaged from the Great Lakes. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/65 "2011-12-23T14:48:03Z")
The OP asked a legitimate question (in the sense that it was an attempt to get more information). I think the dumping here for asking is a bit extreme. Not sure how broadly it extrapolates but generally if a tree in my yard falls in a storm on my neighbor’s house, his insurance is on the hook. Lots of exceptions for things like being told that the tree was a hazard for some reason, etc. So bottom line, legitimate question but unless there was some negligence, the beach owners are one more victim of the “act of god”. ---
**Author:** ![Lestrade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Lestrade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lestrade)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/66 "2011-12-23T16:17:14Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There’s actually a small industry in the Great Lakes that finds and “harvests” lumber that’s been floating around the Lakes for decades. It’s not pulped, though, it’s turned into furniture and veneers. Apparently, floating around in water like that for a long time results in desirable characteristics. > > I could see some enterprising group salvaging the ocean lumber. The great lakes are fresh water, though. I don’t know if that matters. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/67 "2011-12-23T20:35:18Z")
> [@tim-n-va](#): > > The OP asked a legitimate question (in the sense that it was an attempt to get more information). I think the dumping here for asking is a bit extreme. The OP asked a half-assed question which was, as i demonstrated in post #28, based on a misunderstanding of the facts. This is Standard Operating Procedure for the OP. Read any selection of his (literally) thousands of GQ OPs and you’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![fifty-six](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@fifty-six](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fifty-six)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/68 "2011-12-23T23:33:47Z")
> [@Lestrade](#): > > The great lakes are fresh water, though. I don’t know if that matters. I am no expert on the matter. I do however live in a bay were driftwood is very common. It is terrible on saws and is not the best for burning. Some logs are very beautiful though. We get some large Russian ceder driftwood. With considerable effort they can be utilized. Usually they are just left natural and used to line paths or gardens. Some beaches they are to be left alone to protect the berms and bluffs. Time in the ocean seems to play a critical role. Most other lumber type wood serves no end use utility. The salt destroys it in a major way. Japanese glass floats are always a great find. Usually sell for about 10 bucks a pop for the common type. No one seems to be mad about finding that stuff and it is lost or discarded fishing gear. Not a natural disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/69 "2012-04-05T13:02:29Z")
The U.S. Coast Guard is about to sink a Japanese squid boat that was washed away and is now off the Alaskan coast: [http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/05/us/japan-tsunami-ship/index.html?hpt=hp\_t3](http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/05/us/japan-tsunami-ship/index.html?hpt=hp_t3) ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/70 "2012-04-05T13:49:14Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The U.S. Coast Guard is about to sink a Japanese squid boat that was washed away and is now off the Alaskan coast: [http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/05/us/japan-tsunami-ship/index.html?hpt=hp\_t3](http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/05/us/japan-tsunami-ship/index.html?hpt=hp_t3) Why sink it? Isn’t the cost of scrap metal enough to make it worthwhile towing it to shore? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/71 "2012-04-05T14:06:36Z")
Salvaging metal from large boats is a _lot_ of work. You’ve got to haul them out of the water, for one thing. Probably there aren’t any shipyards on the nearby portion of the Alaskan coast capable of doing so. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/72 "2012-04-05T15:39:31Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > The OP asked a half-assed question which was, as i demonstrated in post #28, based on a misunderstanding of the facts. > > This is Standard Operating Procedure for the OP. Read any selection of his (literally) thousands of GQ OPs and you’ll see. Hey, SOMEBODY has to ask the hard questions!😃 ---
**Author:** ![isaiahrobinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/85e7bf/32.png) [@isaiahrobinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/isaiahrobinson)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/73 "2012-04-05T16:06:24Z")
It still cracks me up when people talk about the “legal” relations between countries in matters like this. Is Japan “liable”? The question arguably doesn’t even make sense, but let’s say they are. Who’s going to enforce it? There’s no superior arbiter like there is in domestic legal contexts. It’s anarchy, in the literal sense. If the US wants to make Japan pay for it, they have to ask them to agree, pressure them to agree, or use force. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/74 "2012-04-05T16:25:17Z")
> [@isaiahrobinson](#): > > If the US wants to make Japan pay for it, they have to ask them to agree, pressure them to agree, or use force. I’m sure the Hawaiian beach house owners are campaigning for the Manhattan Project to be reinstated, stat! :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/75 "2012-04-05T16:29:38Z")
If you don’t understand international law, you shouldn’t make assumptions about it (though it’s true that the idea that Japan could be liable for a natural disaster is indeed silly). However, assuming they were, claims could be brought by individuals in US or Japanese courts. The normal enforcement mechanism, assuming a lack of voluntary compliance, would be seizure of Japanese assets in the US. Alternatively, the US could bring claims on behalf of its citizens before any one on of dozens of international tribunals (such as the Chamber for Marine Environment Disputes of the ITLOS). ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/76 "2012-04-05T17:20:42Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > So you failed to read my earlier post where I pointed out the SkyLab incident. We purposely brought down SkyLab before it went into an uncontrolled dissent. _Uncontrolled dissent?_ Did Skylab advocate political anarchy or something? ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/77 "2012-04-05T17:50:53Z")
> [@Reverend\_Meade](#): > > THIS IS NOT TRASH AND JUNK! THESE ARE THE REMAINS OF THEIR HOMES AND THE BODIES OF THEIR RELATIVES! Do really not understand this? Are you honestly this clueless? May I point out that if your neighbor’s house blew up, and left a pile of rubble and bodies/parts you would most likely get really snotty if someone told you that it was being left there to rot and decompose into mulch. And by most definitions it is trash and junk, bodies nonwithstanding. [all a body is happens to be bone and meat, just as if you had a leg of lamb go bad and dropped it into the trash can. consider my body once I am dead to be just so much garbage, nothing holy or sacred about 200+ pounds of bone and flesh that I am no longer needing. I wouldn’t care if the hospital ran me to the nearest transfer station and turfed my corpse in.] > [@Sailboat](#): > > _Uncontrolled dissent?_ Did Skylab advocate political anarchy or something? _snicker_ ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/78 "2012-04-05T21:14:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Salvaging metal from large boats is a _lot_ of work. You’ve got to haul them out of the water, for one thing. Probably there aren’t any shipyards on the nearby portion of the Alaskan coast capable of doing so. An update says a Canadian fishing boat claimed salvage rights and is going to tow it in. > **[US Coast Guard sinks tsunami 'ghost ship'](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17630153)** > > The US Coast Guard uses cannon to sink a crewless Japanese ship that had drifted to Alaska after being washed away by the 2011 tsunami. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/79 "2012-04-06T16:18:19Z")
Looks like the Canadian fisherman gave up his claim after all, and the squid trawler has now been sunk by USCG gunfire: [http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/06/us/japan-tsunami-ship/index.html?hpt=hp\_c3](http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/06/us/japan-tsunami-ship/index.html?hpt=hp_c3) In all the coverage of this, I’m surprised there’s no mention of the actual owner of the trawler, who should be findable, since the trawler was positively identified (although I wouldn’t be surprised if he, she or it has already written off the trawler as a loss). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958/80 "2012-04-06T17:31:00Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > In all the coverage of this, I’m surprised there’s no mention of the actual owner of the trawler, who should be findable, since the trawler was positively identified (although I wouldn’t be surprised if he, she or it has already written off the trawler as a loss). From the original link: > [@](#): > > The Japan Coast Guard identified the owner of the vessel after being contacted by Canadian officials, who were provided the identification number on the hull. [This article](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/coast-guard-cannon-fire-sinks-japanese-ghost-ship-damaged-tsunami-article-1.1057373?localLinksEnabled=false) says it was due to be scrapped anyway: > [@](#): > > The ship was at Hokkaido, Japan, and destined for scrapping when a magnitude-9.0 earthquake that struck the country in March 2011 triggered a tsunami. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-tons-of-junk-headed-for-hawaii-is-japan-liable/600958.md?page=5)