# 200 Billion for blowing them up, versus 200 Million to buy them off?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-billion-for-blowing-them-up-versus-200-million-to-buy-them-off/241953
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 25, 2004, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-billion-for-blowing-them-up-versus-200-million-to-buy-them-off/241953 "2004-04-25T20:19:25Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)
#### Post date: [April 25, 2004, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-billion-for-blowing-them-up-versus-200-million-to-buy-them-off/241953/1 "2004-04-25T20:19:25Z")
Prince Bandar told dumb George to buy Saddam’s government out from under him, lock, stock and two blazing barrels.
This from our 'closest ally" and the next door neighbor of our enemy.
This from a guy who knows the ground, and is fundamentally (on this point anyway) one hundred percent on our side.
the cost:$200 million for three months wages.
Instead, they made a blunder that will reverberate throughout the history of the american republic as one of the stupidest and costliest ever made by a president.
I guess Geurge walks funny 'cause that stick up his ass goes right into what would be, in most human beings, a brain…[http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/politics/politics-iraq-usa-bandar.html](http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/politics/politics-iraq-usa-bandar.html)
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### Author:  [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)
#### Post date: [April 25, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-billion-for-blowing-them-up-versus-200-million-to-buy-them-off/241953/2 "2004-04-25T20:21:39Z")
oh, right.
the debate:
:
Are there any good arguments for not taking Bandar’s advice, and, more importantly, are there any good arguments for repecting the judgement of the guy who turned the advice down?
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### Author:  [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)
#### Post date: [April 25, 2004, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-billion-for-blowing-them-up-versus-200-million-to-buy-them-off/241953/3 "2004-04-25T20:36:56Z")
The _Times_ is giving me a “Cannot Find Server”.
Alternate link, the relevant portion.
> **[Business & Financial News, U.S & International Breaking News | Reuters](https://www.reuters.com/politics)**
>
> Reuters.com brings you the latest news from around the world, covering breaking news in markets, business, politics, entertainment, technology, video and pictures.
> [@](#):
>
> Saudi Ambassador: Iraq Pay-Off Could Avoid Bloodshed
> Sun Apr 25, 2004 02:07 PM ET
>
> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Bush administration might have avoided a deadly insurgency in Iraq by buying the loyalty of its former military for about $200 million, Saudi Arabia’s ambassador to the United States said on Sunday.
>
> But Ambassador Prince Bandar bin Sultan declined to say whether he had actually advised President Bush to offer former members of Saddam Hussein’s military three months’ pay in exchange for their services in securing Iraq.
>
> Bandar was asked on NBC’s “Meet the Press” whether journalist Bob Woodward was correct when he said that Bandar had advised Bush to take $200 million and “buy off, in effect, the Iraqi army.”
>
> Bandar replied: “I don’t talk about my conversations with the president … but I believe that would have been the right way to go.”
>
> Earlier on the same program to discuss his new book about the Bush administration, “Plan of Attack,” Woodward said he was told last week that Saudi officials including Bandar had recommended the $200 million strategy to Bush and top aides.
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### Author:  [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)
#### Post date: [April 25, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-billion-for-blowing-them-up-versus-200-million-to-buy-them-off/241953/4 "2004-04-25T20:41:14Z")
I seem to recall similar arguments about Vietnam, perhaps why it wasn’t done there is the same reason it couldn’t have been done in Iraq.
I hope there was a good reason, and it wasn’t just blood-lust. I dislike Bush and his administration, but I’m not quite at the point where I believe they are so bloodthirsty to spend far more money for a far more bloody scenario.
Please, someone find a good reason why buying the army wouldn’t work.
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### Author:  [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)
#### Post date: [April 25, 2004, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-billion-for-blowing-them-up-versus-200-million-to-buy-them-off/241953/5 "2004-04-25T23:10:46Z")
> [@Revtim](#):
>
> Please, someone find a good reason why buying the army wouldn’t work.
Because you can’t “win hearts and minds” while at the same time enforcing order
by employing the same thugs who have beat up those hearts and minds for the past few decades.
Because three months pay to a soldier does not guarantee neverending loyalty. Many of the soldiers that we hired to form the new Iraqi military either deserted or switched sides - if we hired the old regime’s soldiers they might well have done the same.
Because it’s far from clear that the majority of the insurgents are former soldiers in the Iraqi Army.
Because corrupt officials or generals might have found some way to stiff the troops and run off with the money.
Because Bandar is a supporter of Al Queda and was most likely just looking for a way to install a Shi’ite government in Iraq.
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### Author:  [@Spezza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spezza)
#### Post date: [April 26, 2004, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-billion-for-blowing-them-up-versus-200-million-to-buy-them-off/241953/6 "2004-04-26T00:14:28Z")
> [@ITR champion](#):
>
> Because Bandar is a supporter of Al Queda and was most likely just looking for a way to install a Shi’ite government in Iraq.
Why would Bandar, a Sunni, want to install a rival Shi’a government next door?
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### Author:  [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)
#### Post date: [April 26, 2004, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-billion-for-blowing-them-up-versus-200-million-to-buy-them-off/241953/7 "2004-04-26T01:03:07Z")
Not to mention a trial balloon was floated over the weekend about giving amnesty to Ba’ath party members in the Army and Police if they’d come back to work.
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### Author:  [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)
#### Post date: [April 26, 2004, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-billion-for-blowing-them-up-versus-200-million-to-buy-them-off/241953/8 "2004-04-26T01:20:39Z")
> [@ITR champion](#):
>
> Because you can’t “win hearts and minds” while at the same time enforcing order by employing the same thugs who have beat up those hearts and minds for the past few decades.
Importing American thugs doesn’t seem to be working that well either.
> [@](#):
>
> Because three months pay to a soldier does not guarantee neverending loyalty.
No but leaving him without a job guarantees he will be an enemy.
> [@](#):
>
> Because it’s far from clear that the majority of the insurgents are former soldiers in the Iraqi Army.
This is very true but the USA has done everything wrong so that some who could be on their side have been made enemies. It is the price of the arrogance.
> [@](#):
>
> Because corrupt officials or generals might have found some way to stiff the troops and run off with the money.
Ha! like it’s not happening right now. The waste and corruption are staggering.
> [@](#):
>
> Because Bandar is a supporter of Al Queda and was most likely just looking for a way to install a Shi’ite government in Iraq.
So if he is a supporter of AlQaeda why is the US fighting others who aren’t and yet does nothing to him?
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### Author:  [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)
#### Post date: [April 26, 2004, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-billion-for-blowing-them-up-versus-200-million-to-buy-them-off/241953/9 "2004-04-26T01:48:44Z")
> [@ITR champion](#):
>
> Because Bandar is a supporter of Al Queda and was most likely just looking for a way to install a Shi’ite government in Iraq.
If that’s the case, Bush needs better friends. 🙂
From [here](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,61398,00.html):
> [@](#):
>
> Bandar, dean of the Washington ambassadorial delegation, is a longtime **friend** of the Bush family and conduit to his Saudi royal relatives, who oppose U.S. military action against Iraq.
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### Author:  [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)
#### Post date: [April 26, 2004, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-billion-for-blowing-them-up-versus-200-million-to-buy-them-off/241953/10 "2004-04-26T05:12:13Z")
> [@sailor](#):
>
> So if he is a supporter of AlQaeda why is the US fighting others who aren’t and yet does nothing to him?
Well, Saddam Hussein just didn’t lavish money on both political parties as well as countless American think tanks, charities, and other organizations. Bandar [did](http://www.mattwelch.com/NatPostSave/bandar.htm). It seems that the real goal that the Saudi royal family has for him was to basically buy some goodwill for themselves; they certainly are capable of meeting the price.
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### Author:  [@MeanJoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanJoe)
#### Post date: [April 26, 2004, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-billion-for-blowing-them-up-versus-200-million-to-buy-them-off/241953/11 "2004-04-26T14:04:58Z")
I don’t mean to hijack this but…
1.) I saw the interview on Meet the Press this weekend and I just knew once I got back in town and checked the SDMB this thread would be here.
2.) I also just knew there’d not be a single person “upset” over the flights out of the U.S. for OBL’s family when Bandar specifically identified Richard Clark as being whom he had meetings with to remove them. Once he said Richard Clark’s name, I knew it’d drop into obscurity - can’t blame Bush any longer and can’t take attacks at the poster boy for the far left anti-Bush crowd.
I love this place…
MeanJoe
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [April 26, 2004, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-billion-for-blowing-them-up-versus-200-million-to-buy-them-off/241953/12 "2004-04-26T14:31:10Z")
**MJ:** _I also just knew there’d not be a single person “upset” over the flights out of the U.S. for OBL’s family when Bandar specifically identified Richard Clark as being whom he had meetings with to remove them._
Who says nobody’s upset over those flights? I’ve been upset about them since Sept. 14 2001 or whenever it was we found out about them. I don’t see why you think that nobody on the left would dare to disapprove of any action just because Richard Clark **e** did it, but you’re certainly wrong. Just because nobody happens to have mentioned it in a thread about a different topic doesn’t mean we’re trying to hush it up, you know.
**ITRc:** _It seems that the real goal that the Saudi royal family has for him was to basically buy some goodwill for themselves; they certainly are capable of meeting the price._
Well, that would be in line with [Neil Bush’s advice](http://www.salon.com/politics/feature/2002/01/24/neil_bush/index_np.html) in his January 2002 speech in Saudi Arabia:
> [@](#):
>
> Presidential brother Neil Bush, while giving a speech Monday in Saudi Arabia, condemned the American media for stereotyping the Arab world and urged Arab leaders to hire lobbyists and public relations representatives to combat these negative images as well as to sway public opinion to a more sympathetic view of Arabs in the Arab-Israeli conflict, according to reports in foreign media outlets. Bush implied that Israel has done a better job of getting its message across in the American media.
>
> “The U.S. media campaign against the interests of Arabs and Muslims, and the American public opinion on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, could be influenced through a sustained lobbying and P.R. effort,” said the younger Bush […]
This speech has struck me as odd ever since I first heard about it: you mean it’s not really about democracy, terrorism, justice, and freedom so much as good old PR? Package your media message more effectively and the US will tilt your way? Wow.
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### Author:  [@MeanJoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanJoe)
#### Post date: [April 26, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-billion-for-blowing-them-up-versus-200-million-to-buy-them-off/241953/13 "2004-04-26T15:07:49Z")
> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> Who says nobody’s upset over those flights? I’ve been upset about them since Sept. 14 2001 or whenever it was we found out about them. I don’t see why you think that nobody on the left would dare to disapprove of any action just because Richard Clark **e** did it, but you’re certainly wrong. Just because nobody happens to have mentioned it in a thread about a different topic doesn’t mean we’re trying to hush it up, you know.
Fair enough, especially considering a thread that is about a different subject.
\
Now, let’s see… where did that thread go about Richard Clarke approving OBL’s family and numerous other Saudi’s leaving the country go. I know it must be around here somewhere. _picks up a rock_ Nope, that is The Pit and nothing there. _turns over a leaf_ Nope, nothing in GD either. Hmmm… darn thread is always sneaking away when you are not looking I guess. 😉
\
MeanJoe
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### Author:  [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)
#### Post date: [April 26, 2004, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-billion-for-blowing-them-up-versus-200-million-to-buy-them-off/241953/14 "2004-04-26T15:38:32Z")
You should probably note that we didn’t really do much fighting against regulars in Iraq. Most of them deserted - they had no loyalty to the regime and couldn’t stand up to us anyway.
It stands as a tribute to the blindness of the left that they immediately believe this fool.
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### Author:  [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)
#### Post date: [April 26, 2004, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-billion-for-blowing-them-up-versus-200-million-to-buy-them-off/241953/15 "2004-04-26T17:28:12Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#):
>
> Prince Bandar told dumb George to buy Saddam’s government out from under him, lock, stock and two blazing barrels.
>
> This from our 'closest ally" and the next door neighbor of our enemy.
>
> This from a guy who knows the ground, and is fundamentally (on this point anyway) one hundred percent on our side.
>
> the cost:$200 million for three months wages.
>
> Instead, they made a blunder that will reverberate throughout the history of the american republic as one of the stupidest and costliest ever made by a president.
>
> I guess Geurge walks funny 'cause that stick up his ass goes right into what would be, in most human beings, a brain…[http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/politics/politics-iraq-usa-bandar.html](http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/politics/politics-iraq-usa-bandar.html)
The problem that Prince Bandar’s suggestion solves is not the same problem that the Bush Administration was trying to fix. Bandar wants to get rid of Hussein (ending the pissing contest between the US and Iraq and allowing US/UK forces to go home victorious) with the minimum disruption to Saudi Arabia and its interests. A new (Sunni) dictator allows everyone to go about their business same as it was before 1991. The Bush Administration made Iraq the focus of the Omnibus Good-for-what-ails-ye Middle Eastern Reconstruction and Revitalization Program.
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### Author:  [@MMI](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MMI)
#### Post date: [April 26, 2004, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-billion-for-blowing-them-up-versus-200-million-to-buy-them-off/241953/16 "2004-04-26T17:33:29Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#):
>
> You should probably note that we didn’t really do much fighting against regulars in Iraq. Most of them deserted - they had no loyalty to the regime and couldn’t stand up to us anyway.
Part of the reason we didn’t do much fighting was we _did_ pay off a number of generals, making them even less enthusiastic about fighting, enforcing discipline. The key advantage of paying them off was it guaranteed that bridges wouldn’t be blown up.
> [@smiling bandit](#):
>
> It stands as a tribute to the blindness of the left that they immediately believe this fool.
Which fool? Bush or Prince Bandar? Or is there a third antecendent possible?
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### Author:  [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)
#### Post date: [April 26, 2004, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-billion-for-blowing-them-up-versus-200-million-to-buy-them-off/241953/17 "2004-04-26T17:37:55Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#):
>
> You should probably note that we didn’t really do much fighting against regulars in Iraq. Most of them deserted - they had no loyalty to the regime and couldn’t stand up to us anyway.
>
> It stands as a tribute to the blindness of the left that they immediately believe this fool.
I’m far left and I’m not buying it.
I mean, would we get some sort of receipt? Could we return our purchase if it was defective? Could we exchange it for Iran if it didn’t fit?
Buy a country! Yeah right!
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### Author:  [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)
#### Post date: [April 26, 2004, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-billion-for-blowing-them-up-versus-200-million-to-buy-them-off/241953/18 "2004-04-26T18:11:13Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#):
>
> It stands as a tribute to the blindness of the left that they immediately believe this fool.
So let me get this straight. Bandar was practically weaned by Barbara Bush, and yet it’s the left that should be criticized for their relationship to him? Did the Bush family get inducted as members of the left in a secret ceremony that I don’t know about, or do you have some other evidence to back up your statement with?
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [April 26, 2004, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-billion-for-blowing-them-up-versus-200-million-to-buy-them-off/241953/19 "2004-04-26T18:19:13Z")
**MJ:** _where did that thread go about Richard Clarke approving OBL’s family and numerous other Saudi’s leaving the country go_
Oh, because some other people haven’t started a thread on the particular subject that **you’re** dying to talk about, it must mean they’re all hypocrites?
Stop being silly, and go start the thread yourself if it’s so important to you.
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### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [April 26, 2004, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-billion-for-blowing-them-up-versus-200-million-to-buy-them-off/241953/20 "2004-04-26T22:17:05Z")
I’m sure the Saudis could have scraped together $200 million to avoid war.
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