# 200 idiotic ACLU staffers are trying to destroy this invaluable organization **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 10, 2017, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-idiotic-aclu-staffers-are-trying-to-destroy-this-invaluable-organization/798452 "2017-10-10T08:54:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-idiotic-aclu-staffers-are-trying-to-destroy-this-invaluable-organization/798452/201 "2017-10-12T19:45:50Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > So conservatives do not donate to the ACLU? Some do, although IIRC I haven’t seen any of the self-identified conservatives who are concern-trolling in this thread about “liberals trying to destroy the ACLU” claiming to do so. (I don’t know the OP’s political affiliation but I think he said that he does support the ACLU.) Most conservatives, however, actively oppose the ACLU because of its generally liberal pro-civil-liberties stances on issues like capital punishment, criminal law and policing reforms, immigrants’ rights, LGBT rights, prisoners’ rights, voting rights, etc. Heck, back in 1988 presidential candidate George H. W. Bush attacked his Democratic rival Michael Dukakis for being a “card-carrying ACLU member” as though that were the very nadir of anti-Americanism (with strong echoes of the “card-carrying Communist” rhetoric of the McCarthy era). So AFAICT no, the majority of American conservatives do not support the ACLU, financially or in any other way. They may temporarily pretend to admire the ACLU when it defends free-speech rights for fascist/racist hate groups, and when they can use it as a stick to beat anti-free-speech leftists with, but that’s not the same thing as genuine support. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-idiotic-aclu-staffers-are-trying-to-destroy-this-invaluable-organization/798452/202 "2017-10-12T20:33:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Until quite recently, black people in America didn’t actually have freedom of speech in any sense. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Douglass is a great example – he was only able to speak freely in relatively few places in the US… in many or even most parts of the US, he would have been arrested or killed because of what he said, with no consequences for his captors or killers. How does the example of Frederick Douglass prove your claim that “until quite recently, black people in America didn’t actually have freedom of speech _in any sense_” (italics added)? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-idiotic-aclu-staffers-are-trying-to-destroy-this-invaluable-organization/798452/203 "2017-10-12T20:54:24Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > How does the example of Frederick Douglass prove your claim that “until quite recently, black people in America didn’t actually have freedom of speech _in any sense_” (italics added)? IAN **iiandyiiii** and cannot speak for him, but I interpreted his remark about Douglass as pointing up the connection between freedom of speech and the protection of **unwelcome** speech. In other words, just because you can get away with saying it in front of a small sympathetic subset of the public doesn’t necessarily mean you have freedom of speech. If in most venues the public would be able to get away with beating or killing you for saying it, you don’t in fact have freedom of speech. I don’t understand your question about “proving” **iiandyiiii** ’s claim about freedom of speech. AFAICT, he was arguing that Douglass’s situation was an **example** of the denial of freedom of speech to black people in America, not a **proof** of it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-idiotic-aclu-staffers-are-trying-to-destroy-this-invaluable-organization/798452/204 "2017-10-12T21:11:41Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > IAN **iiandyiiii** and cannot speak for him, but I interpreted his remark about Douglass as pointing up the connection between freedom of speech and the protection of **unwelcome** speech. > > In other words, just because you can get away with saying it in front of a small sympathetic subset of the public doesn’t necessarily mean you have freedom of speech. If in most venues the public would be able to get away with beating or killing you for saying it, you don’t in fact have freedom of speech. > > I don’t understand your question about “proving” **iiandyiiii** ’s claim about freedom of speech. AFAICT, he was arguing that Douglass’s situation was an **example** of the denial of freedom of speech to black people in America, not a **proof** of it. Yep. I find it hard to believe that anyone could reasonably argue that black people had freedom of speech in the mid 19th century. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-idiotic-aclu-staffers-are-trying-to-destroy-this-invaluable-organization/798452/205 "2017-10-12T21:31:30Z")
Still haven’t found a copy of that letter. I personally can imagine agreeing or disagreeing with it. OP is unproven so far. In other news, Charlottesville just filed a lawsuit against “Unite the Right” militia groups for “unlawful paramilitary activity.” [INDENT][INDENT]From [TPM article](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/charlottesville-sues-white-nationalists-unite-the-right) The lawsuit explicitly notes that both peaceable right to assemble and gun ownership are protected activities, but that serving as “members of a fighting force” unsanctioned by the government is not. … “The Alt-Right Defendants did not come to Charlottesville merely to espouse their controversial ideas in a public park. They came to coerce and terrorize.” [/INDENT][/INDENT] IANAL, but ISTM that armed and coercive invasion is not properly considered protected speech. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-idiotic-aclu-staffers-are-trying-to-destroy-this-invaluable-organization/798452/206 "2017-10-12T22:00:59Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Yes, I do on both counts. I think most problems of racism are systemic, having largely to do with low social mobility and poverty, and requiring surprisingly little conscious racism on anyone’s part. It’s certainly a problem, and certainly worth addressing. I don’t think the white supremacists who are the target of ire here have much to do with it. Aha, thought so. In case you didn’t know already, this is the major line of difference between you and the other leftist side. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-idiotic-aclu-staffers-are-trying-to-destroy-this-invaluable-organization/798452/207 "2017-10-12T22:06:30Z")
I don’t think there’s a private cause of action in Virginia law for this, but frankly I’m kinda hoping the Facebook braggadocio of the Nazis is enough to provide the hook for a win. Should be interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-idiotic-aclu-staffers-are-trying-to-destroy-this-invaluable-organization/798452/208 "2017-10-12T22:14:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t think there’s a private cause of action in Virginia law for this, but frankly I’m kinda hoping the Facebook braggadocio of the Nazis is enough to provide the hook for a win. Win what, **Bricker**? Sorry, I’m not understanding what you mean or what connection it has to suggested modifications on the ACLU’s position on protecting First Amendment rights. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-idiotic-aclu-staffers-are-trying-to-destroy-this-invaluable-organization/798452/209 "2017-10-12T22:39:54Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Offensive, but not quite hate speech. Great, so every case of “I advocate X” that is prosecutable hate speech gets changed to “I advocate not-X” with a wink added. What progress! :rolleyes: > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Shouldn’t this OP be in the “Stupid Social Justice Warrior Bullshit O’ the Day” thread? I’m not really out to reinforce right wing memes. I’m gonna guess that roughly half the stuff in that thread, I’d agree is “stupid bullshit”, and half I would support as a legitimate progressive action. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Some do, although IIRC I haven’t seen any of the self-identified conservatives who are concern-trolling in this thread about “liberals trying to destroy the ACLU” claiming to do so. (I don’t know the OP’s political affiliation but I think he said that he does support the ACLU.) > > Most conservatives, however, actively oppose the ACLU because of its generally liberal pro-civil-liberties stances on issues like capital punishment, criminal law and policing reforms, immigrants’ rights, LGBT rights, prisoners’ rights, voting rights, etc. Heck, back in 1988 presidential candidate George H. W. Bush attacked his Democratic rival Michael Dukakis for being a “card-carrying ACLU member” as though that were the very nadir of anti-Americanism (with strong echoes of the “card-carrying Communist” rhetoric of the McCarthy era). Yes, I was a teenager then, but a very politically aware one, and I was infuriated by Bush’s dirty politics (I believe he even went to a flag factory to make the accusation, which is just so nauseating). My political affiliation is Democratic. The only Republican I ever voted for was in a local sheriff’s race, because the Democratic sheriff was implicated in a case of police brutality against a black man, which I had led a protest against. However, I’m a Democrat of the Jon Chait/Sam Harris variety. I don’t have much patience for the Bernie Sanders wing, or all the campus/Twitter PC Maoists who make the perfect the enemy of the good and take an authoritarian tack against free speech. > [@tim314](#): > > When an attorney defends a serial killer in court, they are helping them. Does that make it wrong? > > Terrible people still have rights, and they should – but they won’t if no one defends those rights. We should vigorously oppose white supremacists in many ways, but denying them their First Amendment rights isn’t one of those ways. QFT. You’re reminding me that I once got a letter read on O’Reilly’s show, in which I took him on over that very issue (he argued that it was somehow unethical for lawyers to defend “bad guys” or whatever he called them). I wondered if he had gotten equally agitated over the prosecutorial conduct in Tulia, Texas. (He indignantly insisted in response to my letter that he had indeed, but I watched the show regularly back then and I don’t remember him doing so.) ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2017, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-idiotic-aclu-staffers-are-trying-to-destroy-this-invaluable-organization/798452/210 "2017-10-13T02:31:31Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Chalk up +1 situational evidence for the argument, “In a free speech environment, good ideas succeed and bad ideas don’t”. In a free speech environment, powerful ideas succeed and weaker ideas don’t. Be careful about the ideas that you empower. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2017, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-idiotic-aclu-staffers-are-trying-to-destroy-this-invaluable-organization/798452/211 "2017-10-13T04:05:26Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > In a free speech environment, powerful ideas succeed and weaker ideas don’t. Be careful about the ideas that you empower. What was powerful about racial equality in the 60s? What’s powerful about atheism now? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200-idiotic-aclu-staffers-are-trying-to-destroy-this-invaluable-organization/798452.md?page=10)