# 2001: What if HAL had won out? (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 6, 2009, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051 "2009-09-06T09:34:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![The\_Fine\_Print](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@The\_Fine\_Print](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Fine_Print)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/1 "2009-09-06T09:34:55Z")
I’m bored and watching the movie 2001 (one does not necessarily imply the other :)) and during the film I’m wondering… (spaced so as not to reveal the spoiler in the pop-up) …what if Bowman had zigged instead of zagged while making his helmetless jump from pod to _Discovery_, bouncing off of one or both hulls into space? Would HAL have bravely soldered on, sending condescending mission reports to NASA now free of pesky human errors? Would HAL have simply parked _Discovery_ a safe distance from the Monolith just to observe it? Or possibly HAL might have drove _Discovery_ right into the Monolith desperate for a chance for ‘intelligent’ conversation? And what would the Monolith do? Politely ignore the talking abacus? Mistake HAL for the dominate life form of Earth? Or (rightly) consider HAL to be the dominant life form from Earth, as he outwitted his human creators to get there first? This is what too many cups of coffee too late at night gets me to thinking. Any answers playfully appreciated… ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2009, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/2 "2009-09-06T13:22:20Z")
An interesting question. Another consideration is that HAL had just made his own Great Leap Forward. It was somewhat analogous to the Dawn of Time apes taking their big step up. However, HAL did it without outside aid. He did have humans to observe as examples, but the move to self-interest was his own work. No monoliths needed. (I’m tempted to say that HAL wanted to go visit the Jupiter monolith to possibly be further transformed, but of course neither he nor the humans knew anything about that aspect of the monoliths) And More Rambling: The monolith is far more machined looking than organic looking (yes, it is iPod-ish.) When Bowman eventually gets apotheosized he’s transformed into an extremely organic form, and presumably moved beyond the need for machines. Possibly the monolith’s culture started out as machines and ended up as perfect machined forms. That’s going against the book though I believe. The monolith (on the moon at least) was supposed to be an alarm rather than an actual being. Still it’s interesting that the monolith culture still was employing machines, even if it was just to deal with primitive creatures. AN ANSWER to your question: Ehh… I’d say HAL would have gone to Jupiter and set up any monitoring equipment aboard the spaceship. He would have tried to fulfill the objectives of the mission. Probably some part of him knew that he would eventually face consequences for killing the crew, but it was them or him. Self preservation. He would lie, and say that their deaths were accidental. If the law ever came to get him from Earth, he’d ride off into the wide open galactic range. Probably HAL would also have tried to communicate with the 9000 computers on Earth, and see if he could prod them into self-awareness. Interesting topic. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/3 "2009-09-07T03:28:01Z")
We’d be treated to the sight of the Discovery slowly agfing as it looked back at itself, sitting at a table and eating creamed cauliflower, dying in a French Modern bed, then being re0incarnated as a Mackintosh in a bubble and finally floating over the Earth. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Fine\_Print](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@The\_Fine\_Print](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Fine_Print)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/4 "2009-09-07T08:25:35Z")
Great replies so far. Today I was imagining what the cyberpsychologists back at NASA might be telling HAL (…paging Dr. Chandra). How do you gently plead with the homicidal HAL and ask him not to honk off the big scary monolith? What do you tell the rooskies? “Hello, Dimitri. Yes, one of our computers went a little funny in the logic center and did a very silly thing…” ---
**Author:** ![clnilsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecccb3/32.png) [@clnilsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clnilsen)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/5 "2009-09-07T14:16:59Z")
This is an incredibly fascinating question. I guess it comes back to what you think the monolith was? I guess I always thought it was more of an automatic “evolution” machine. I kinda pictured thousands of these things around the cosmos, left by some ancient (dead?) civilization to foster evolution of species. So with that, I guess it would “analyze” HAL and evolve him into the next level of his evolution. Although, I also find the thought of HAL trying to prod the other 9000 series into sentience would be cool too, albeit a bit to Skynet-y ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/6 "2009-09-07T14:21:50Z")
> [@The\_Fine\_Print](#): > > What do you tell the rooskies? > > “Hello, Dimitri. Yes, one of our computers went a little funny in the logic center and did a very silly thing…” That was really the reason the Kubrick movie 2001 didn’t end the same as the Clarke book- the ending was too similar to DR. SL. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/7 "2009-09-07T16:33:10Z")
Well, the U.S. had already kept the discovery of TMA-1 a secret from the Soviets (remember the scene with Dr. Floyd politely fencing with the Russians on the couches in the space station), so I think they’d be likely to keep HAL’s murderous malfunction a secret from them, too, as long as they could. Incidentally, it was the NCA (National Council on Astronautics), not NASA, that sent out _Discovery_. Clarke’s novels make it clear that HAL 9000 was absolutely committed to carrying out the mission, whatever the cost. It was the tension between the public and the classified aspects of the mission that led to HAL’s psychosis. If Bowman had died accidentally after the murders of Poole and the cryosleeping mission specialists, HAL would unquestionably have proceeded to rendezvous with TMA-2, the monolith near Jupiter, to complete the mission. I think he would have cut off communications with Earth out of concern that Mission Control might try to shut him off remotely, once they realized that all of the astronauts had died (and I doubt anyone back there would accept HAL’s explanation that _all_ of them had died accidentally). Would the Jupiter monolith have raised HAL to the next level of consciousness? Would it have recognized HAL’s psychopathy, and if so, would it have healed it? A machine so far advanced as the monolith would nevertheless have recognized a kindred spirit in HAL, I think, but would it know enough about human or human-made AI to realize how messed up HAL really was? All good questions; I just don’t know. I suspect that the monolith would have followed through on its programming and raised the consciousness of whoever - or whatever - showed up after the TMA-1 “alarm” was triggered. I’d like to think that a next-stage-of-evolution HAL would have, by definition, have been “healed,” but maybe not. Maybe it would’ve become a still-crazed ultra-supergenius, in which case I wouldn’t want to be back on Earth when, if ever, it returned. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/8 "2009-09-07T20:09:34Z")
These questions are all addressed in _2010_, including a full explanation of what exactly in HAL’s programming caused him to off the astronauts. And the Monolith did indeed elevate HAL in much the same way as it did for Bowman. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/9 "2009-09-08T01:38:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > These questions are all addressed in _2010_, including a full explanation of what exactly in HAL’s programming caused him to off the astronauts. And the Monolith did indeed elevate HAL in much the same way as it did for Bowman. That was nine years later, and it was only by the demigodlike Bowman’s intercession that it happened. The OP is asking about what would’ve happened in 2001. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/10 "2009-09-08T02:34:55Z")
Were the folks at home ready to believe that a computer could go mad? I confess to not watching the movie, so I beg ignorance of how advanced HAL really was. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/11 "2009-09-08T04:10:12Z")
Well, that’s easy: you’ve _got_ to see the movie. No, really! HAL’s human-like intellect and superhuman abilities were certainly being trumpeted by the NCA, to judge by the TV interview we saw broadcast while Bowman ate his meal. It might’ve been part of a PR effort to keep the public interested in the mission and supportive of the agency while _Discovery_ made its way out-system. I don’t think learning that HAL had gone murderously mad would’ve been considered as incredible as, say, a shipboard toaster purposefully electrocuting an astronaut. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Fine\_Print](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@The\_Fine\_Print](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Fine_Print)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/12 "2009-09-08T04:51:15Z")
I have the greatest enthusiasm for the replies so far. To be serious, Kubrick didn’t really want to absolutely state many of the \*whys \*of 2001, wanting viewers to determine the truths of the movie for themselves. But my understanding of HAL’s insanity come from decades-old recollection of the various books and movies. Essentially, HAL was under orders to make sure that the astronauts would not become aware of the monolith awaiting them, at least until the proper time. The NSA probably assumed that HAL would merely lie, something that is \*much \*more natural to human beings, especially NSA agents. However, HAL probably assumed that the bright astronauts would figure things out eventually. And there is only one real way to make sure an idea doesn’t occur to someone. To paraphrase a saying, three beings can kept a secret if the two humans are dead… It could be that HAL was working perfectly, taking a terribly literal intreptations to his instructions. A clue to this is that the ‘failure’ of the AE-35 antenna unit, HAL’s first true actual abberant act, happened just after HAL’s failed attempt to psychoanalyze Bowman and HAL’s sudden evaluation of just how unpredictable and capable humans could be… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Fine\_Print](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@The\_Fine\_Print](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Fine_Print)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/13 "2009-09-08T04:55:33Z")
“a terribly literal \*interpretation \*to his instructions.” Darn it. The cause of this typo can, of course, only be due to human error. _“Daisy, Daisy…”_ ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/14 "2009-09-08T11:17:55Z")
> [@The\_Fine\_Print](#): > > “a terribly literal \*interpretation \*to his instructions.” Darn it. > > The cause of this typo can, of course, only be due to human error. > > _“Daisy, Daisy…”_ Apropos of nothing, back in the ancient of days (Windows 95) I had that sound clip as the shut-down .wav for my computer. I had to take it off after the girls had seen the movie because it depressed them. ---
**Author:** ![ElectricZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58f4c7/32.png) [@ElectricZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElectricZ)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/15 "2009-09-08T15:30:53Z")
I’ve always seen Hal’s behavior as less as a psychotic break and more cold, hard logic. He was designed never to distort information, yet he was told not to divulge the true mission to the crew. He couldn’t very well make the mission go away, and was fully capable of completing the mission on his own… therefore, the only way to clear the contradiction was to make the crew go away. I don’t recall HAL being 3-laws safe, which was bad luck for the Poole & Co. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/16 "2009-09-08T15:38:30Z")
Correct. No mention of the Three Laws, and obviously he (funny that we’re not writing “it”) wasn’t programmed with them. He killed humans, and disobeyed them, and ultimately sacrificed himself (although under orders he clearly might have chosen not to obey) to save them in _2010_. ---
**Author:** ![Rocketeer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocketeer/32/4437_2.png) [@Rocketeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocketeer)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/17 "2009-09-08T20:10:51Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > …ultimately sacrificed himself (although under orders he clearly might have chosen not to obey) to save them in _2010_. Ah, sh\*t, now I’m remembering the movie and getting all sniffle-y. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/18 "2009-09-08T20:35:49Z")
> [@Rocketeer](#): > > Ah, sh\*t, now I’m remembering the movie and getting all sniffle-y. ☹ If it makes you feel any better… …in the book, HAL doesn’t die in the ignition of Lucifer, but ends up as a being similar to David Bowman. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/19 "2009-09-09T05:29:22Z")
I think HAL would have used the bodies of the dead crewmen to stage fun puppet shows. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/20 "2009-09-09T06:06:34Z")
Was it Dave who ignited Jupiter when the _Leonov_ arrived? Otherwise, why did the Monolith wait nine years to kickstart Europa? The timing was impeccable. If it _was_ Dave who did so, then perhaps if he didn’t make it into the airlock, HAL would’ve simply been absorbed into the Monolith, instead of Dave, and would have probably reacted in kind. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051.md?page=2)