# 2001: What if HAL had won out? (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 6, 2009, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051 "2009-09-06T09:34:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/21 "2009-09-09T07:48:18Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Was it Dave who ignited Jupiter when the _Leonov_ arrived? Otherwise, why did the Monolith wait nine years to kickstart Europa? The timing was impeccable. If it _was_ Dave who did so, then perhaps if he didn’t make it into the airlock, HAL would’ve simply been absorbed into the Monolith, instead of Dave, and would have probably reacted in kind. I think it is clear from 2010 that Dave only returned 9 years later. In the book one of the Russian astronauts is killed, accidentally, when Dave emerges from TMA 2 on the way back. As for HAL - this is one of the first new questions about 2001 I’ve seen in decades. Outstanding! HAL would no doubt have completed the mission to the best of his ability, totally convinced that it was the best result possible. I’m not at all sure if he would have gone through the Stargate, though. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/22 "2009-09-09T07:51:17Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > That was nine years later, and it was only by the demigodlike Bowman’s intercession that it happened. The OP is asking about what would’ve happened in 2001. While it was 9 years later, HAL had been switched off for most of that time, so he wouldn’t have developed much. My reading was that Dave brought HAL with him to the next stage in recognition that HAL was already an intelligent non-life form. I didn’t get any sense that Dave or the aliens modfied him in any way. Dave, in his advanced form, saved both the crew of the Leonov (or rather gave them the warning they needed) and saved HAL. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/23 "2009-09-09T13:33:42Z")
> [@The\_Fine\_Print](#): > > I have the greatest enthusiasm for the replies so far… I’d overlooked this earlier. Nice! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Fine\_Print](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@The\_Fine\_Print](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Fine_Print)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/24 "2009-09-09T18:21:06Z")
Aw, how can you not work a quote from HAL into conversation? He has got to be the most \*courteous \*mass murderer in fiction. Customer service, that’s what it’s all about! 😃 It’s also heartening to read actual sympathy for ol’ Red Eye. So, whaddya think; HAL; Mac or PC? ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/25 "2009-09-09T19:08:14Z")
Clarke’s explanation in 2010 was basically that HAL was a perfect reasoning machine, and it was only the logic bomb embedded the orders that made “him” go “mad”. But HAL requires human beings to give him direction, and humans being imperfect beings HAL going mad is always an possibility. But combine HAL with the ultra-evolutionized perfected Bowman/Starchild being, and you’ve got a match made in heaven. I think Clarke thought that in the end HAL was too good for us mere mortals. And so, had HAL encountered the monolith alone in 2001 I think the Monolith would have recognized HAL as a flawed but worthy being to evolutionize. But it would have made for a dull movie and/or novel. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![fiddlesticks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddlesticks/32/18129_2.png) [@fiddlesticks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiddlesticks)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/26 "2009-09-09T19:17:32Z")
My reading of 2010 was that even though Dave was far beyond humanity, he was still far behind the Monolith intelligence. Igniting Jupiter was not Bowman’s call. He was along for the ride and was given a tour under the ice of Europa and the atmosphere of Jupiter so that he could see why Jupiter was going to be sacrificed for the Europans, but the decision had already been made. Still, I think a question Clarke chose not to cover is why did the ignition happen when it did. Where they waiting for humans to come back to turn on HAL? Why couldn’t they switch HAL back on? Did they want humans to witness the power of the Monolith at a close distance? Was it simply a matter of Bowman’s “training” taking 9 years? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/27 "2009-09-09T19:54:25Z")
For that matter, what was Dave supposed to be doing? I agree that he didn’t make the decision about Europa. I suspect however that the timing comes from TMA 2 being switched on by the signal coming from TMA 1, which got switched on after being dug up. Perhaps Bowman was supposed to be supervising in some way. In 2001 it is made clear that the makers of the monoliths had a goal of stimulating intelligence, kind of like the way the Overlords had a goal of bringing races into the Overmind in **Childhood’s End**. But **3001** seemed to invalidate all of this, and the Baxter/Clarke books kind of followed that theme. Did Clarke have second thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/28 "2009-09-10T01:52:30Z")
> [@](#): > > So, whaddya think; HAL; Mac or PC? [According to Mac, he was a PC](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHJkAYdT7qo) ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/29 "2009-09-10T02:07:13Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > We’d be treated to the sight of the Discovery slowly agfing as it looked back at itself, sitting at a table and eating creamed cauliflower, dying in a French Modern bed, then being re0incarnated as a Mackintosh in a bubble and finally floating over the Earth. But would it press the button to detonate the ring of bombs? ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/30 "2009-09-10T21:46:14Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > But **3001** seemed to invalidate all of this, and the Baxter/Clarke books kind of followed that theme. Did Clarke have second thoughts? I think the [Wikipedia entry for 3001](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3001:_The_Final_Odyssey#Differences_between_3001:_The_Final_Odyssey_and_earlier_books) gives a pretty good explanation that the series isn’t meant to be entirely self-consistent and Clarke used different books to explore different themes. I don’t recall 3001 that well, though; does anyone remember the reasoning (if there was one) behind the “kill order” received from the monoliths’ masters? ---
**Author:** ![SweetLucy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@SweetLucy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SweetLucy)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/31 "2009-09-11T06:05:45Z")
> [@duality72](#): > > I think the [Wikipedia entry for 3001](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3001:_The_Final_Odyssey#Differences_between_3001:_The_Final_Odyssey_and_earlier_books) gives a pretty good explanation that the series isn’t meant to be entirely self-consistent and Clarke used different books to explore different themes. > > I don’t recall 3001 that well, though; does anyone remember the reasoning (if there was one) behind the “kill order” received from the monoliths’ masters? [SPOILER] (sorry, I have no idea how to do the nifty “spoiler” feature with a hidden text box, I’m quite tech illiterate) If I remember correctly, it was because the masters considered humans to be very dangerous and a risk to other intelligent life in the galaxy, due to the nuclear bomb, etc. even though this was all obsolete by 3001. [/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/32 "2009-09-11T15:08:12Z")
Hi **SweetLucy** , you can put spoiler tags around a section of text by typing “[spoiller]” at the beginning and “[/spoiller]” at the end (use the correct spelling and it will work). ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/33 "2009-09-11T16:52:48Z")
In the novel what really causes HAL’s flipping out was the threat of disconnection. The reason for the AE35 antenna fiasco was that he wanted to break contact with Earth because he was making small mistakes and mission control was aware of it because of telemetry, HAL became more and more paranoid. Clarke states he probably could have handled the conflicting orders but once threatened by Dave & Frank’s actions to “harm” him HAL had no choice but to eliminate the humans and continue the mission unhampered by conflicting programs. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/34 "2009-09-11T17:19:52Z")
> [@The\_Fine\_Print](#): > > A clue to this is that the ‘failure’ of the AE-35 antenna unit, HAL’s first true actual abberant act… If you want to get really geeky (and who doesn’t), the first abberant act was HAL’s chess game at the begining with Poole. “HAL: I’m sorry, Frank. I think you missed it. Queen to Bishop Three. Bishop takes Queen. Knight takes Bishop. Mate.” While it’s true that in this game, all roads lead to checkmate, there were alternative lines which would have prolonged the game another move or two. HAL lied (or just misrepresented) to get the game over with sooner. One wonders why HAL would even bother anyway seeing as he’s “just” a computer and should have had infinite patience for the game he was playing. Unless…he wasn’t. DUH DUH DUUUUUUUUUHHHHH ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051/35 "2009-09-11T17:37:07Z")
Hmmm. I’d never heard that about HAL’s and Poole’s chess game before. Similarly, Spock realized that all was not well with the _Enterprise_’s computer when he beat it in chess in the episode “Court Martial.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2001-what-if-hal-had-won-out-spoilers/509051.md?page=1)