# $200K/year isn't rich. Why aren't we taxing corporations? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 12, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110 "2011-09-12T23:36:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/221 "2011-09-15T02:04:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I consider giving your kid a reasonable education “basic”. You? Aren’t I the perfect asshole for sending my kids to an atrocious public school because there’s no way in hell I could ever have afforded private school. Even being ‘middle class.’ And I was hoping for a father of the year ribbon. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/222 "2011-09-15T02:14:34Z")
> [@gurujulp](#): > > Can and would are different things. Would YOU invite someone you know a bit through a message board to your home by buying them multi-thousand dollar tickets to visit? Not me! I don’t need to, I am not the one being dishonest about how someone making over 200k has to budget to host guests. You were I suspect intentionally conflating “not wanting to do it” with “cannot afford it easily” I think because it supports the imagery you like of the top 3% of the richest people in one of the richest countries not being rich. > [@](#): > > Could I if I made that kind of money? If I didn’t want a decent vacation or whatever else I would want that money to go to, sure. I got overseas once a year on a custodian’s salary, anyone who makes 200k can easily pay to host guests with cash on hand and also go on a number of luxurious vacations per year. I was born at night, but it wasn’t _last_ night. > [@](#): > > Again, though- I probably wouldn’t have it- you don’t seem to have noticed that I have admitted to bad money management skills. You’re right I didn’t. Are you claiming “I can’t afford a tax increase on my income over 250k per year because I am bad at managing my money” is a valid argument? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/223 "2011-09-15T02:19:12Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Aren’t I the perfect asshole for sending my kids to an atrocious public school because there’s no way in hell I could ever have afforded private school. If you say so. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/224 "2011-09-15T02:22:45Z")
Apparently sarcasm lessons are a little lacking at St. Hibiscus. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/225 "2011-09-15T02:30:34Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Apparently sarcasm lessons are a little lacking at St. Hibiscus. You flatter yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/226 "2011-09-15T02:46:45Z")
I do? Usually I’m a sucker for flattery. I didn’t even notice. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/227 "2011-09-15T03:38:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > $4K mortgage payment > $1.2K groceries > $1.5K school tuition for kid (if in private school) > $1K real estate taxes > $800 utilities/internet/cable > $400 gas/car insurance > $400 entertainment > . Writing those monthly figures followed by the word “basic” is a total absurdity. If you honestly don’t realize it, you’re too out of whack with reality to discuss it. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/228 "2011-09-15T03:49:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You flatter yourself. The truly wealthy pay people to flatter them. > [@rogerbox](#): > > Honest question, any of the people in this thread arguing about how 200,000 really isn’t all that much: Do you believe that revenues need to be increased to solve our debt problem? I suspect that anyone hemming and hawing about how 200k/yr is just aw shucks salt of the earth regular folk, are the same people who think we can “cut” our way out of a recession…somehow. Do you really think the current economic climate is due to the Federal budget not being balanced? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/229 "2011-09-15T04:05:26Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Writing those monthly figures followed by the word “basic” is a total absurdity. > > If you honestly don’t realize it, you’re too out of whack with reality to discuss it. What’s “basic” for upper middle class is not the same as what’s “basic” for you. And what’s “basic” for you is not the same as what’s “basic” for a trailer park family somewhere in Podunk. And what’s “basic” for them is not the same as what’s “basic” for a subsistence farmer somewhere in Ethiopia. The figures I gave are for a regular family. Two cars, probably a 4,000 sq ft house (or, if in NYC, a 1000 sq ft apartment), no pools/tennis courts/helicopter pads, economy class when traveling, no private jets, no butlers/cooks/nannies/gardeners, they do their own grocery shopping, they do not throw money around. Not “rich”. Just reasonably well off. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/230 "2011-09-15T06:48:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Let’s try to figure it out. > > $200K income will get you $120K net or so. I suppose you’ve never had anywhere close to a $200K income. I happen to have the 99 Turbo Tax on this computer. We didn’t make quite $200K in that year, though we were fairly close, but we netted way, way over $120K, including both federal and California state taxes. I’d estimate you are underestimating net by at least $30K, maybe more. > [@](#): > > Now let’s look at reasonable monthly expenses for an upper middle class family - husband, wife, one kid. Not “rich” - just upper middle class. Somewhere like California or NYC. > > # $4K mortgage payment $1.2K groceries $1.5K school tuition for kid (if in private school) $1K real estate taxes $800 utilities/internet/cable $400 gas/car insurance $400 entertainment > > $9.3K total. Multiply by 12 = 111K - basically there is your 120K. And I really just took basics into account. Left out all kinds of expenses. I am sure you can think of quite a few. $1200 a month ($300 a week) for food for 3? I live in the Bay Area, which is not cheap, and I don’t think we could have spent that much if we had tried. Does your model of a middle class family include lobster and porterhouse steak every night? $1k real estate taxes? Only if you have a really expensive house - and in California, if you bought your house any time ago your taxes will be low. $800 a month in utilities? Close the bloody window when the air conditioner is on and this will go right down. $400 a month for car gas/car insurance? $100 a month for insurance is high, assuming you don’t get picked up for drunk driving. At $4/gallon (high) that is nearly 80 gallons a month, or almost 3 gallons a day. Maybe two long commutes in gas guzzling SUVs - but unlikely. Sorry, you’ve just demonstrated that someone making $200K has plenty of money left over if he isn’t a nitwit. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/231 "2011-09-15T06:51:43Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > What’s “basic” for upper middle class is not the same as what’s “basic” for you. And what’s “basic” for you is not the same as what’s “basic” for a trailer park family somewhere in Podunk. And what’s “basic” for them is not the same as what’s “basic” for a subsistence farmer somewhere in Ethiopia. > > The figures I gave are for a regular family. Two cars, probably a 4,000 sq ft house (or, if in NYC, a 1000 sq ft apartment), no pools/tennis courts/helicopter pads, economy class when traveling, no private jets, no butlers/cooks/nannies/gardeners, they do their own grocery shopping, they do not throw money around. Not “rich”. Just reasonably well off. 4,000 square foot house? That’s middle class? My house is 2300 square feet, and is one of the biggest in the neighborhood. We scan the house listings faithfully, and there may be one 4,000 sq. ft house listed in the past 5 years - new, and a monstrosity. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/232 "2011-09-15T06:55:54Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Sometimes I think that this is the biggest pile of bullshit we have been ever sold - that $200K is not rich, they are people just like the rest of us poor sods, struggling from paycheck to paycheck. And so many people, even people who make nowhere near $200K have bought it. > > You know what people do around here that make $200K or more? They absolutely do not live in NYC. Why the fuck would they need to? They buy a nice huge house in Northern NJ or downstate NY and commute. A few of them do live in high-rises in Manhattan, but there are a shit ton of people living in the Hudson Valley who commute to NYC daily or weekly, and they are really really well-off (still not in the $200K range). > > You will never be able to sell to me that an income that falls in 3% of the population is not filthy fucking rich, and it blows my mind that middle class and poor people buy this somehow. Young lady, I’ll have you know that I make close to this amount - and you are absolutely right. Plenty of people live in the suburbs, in very good neighborhoods. Anyone at any income level can spend all his or her money and feel poor - Michael Jackson was broke when he died, remember. But if you are the slightest bit sane you can get pretty much anything you want and not worry about money at all. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/233 "2011-09-15T07:25:12Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Do you really think the current economic climate is due to the Federal budget not being balanced? Not in whole. Care to actually answer the question? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/234 "2011-09-15T10:49:22Z")
> [@](#): > > The point is, even the poor little $200k earners can afford to part with more, so they should Why? Why should one person pay a higher percentage of tax than someone else? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/235 "2011-09-15T12:06:20Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I suppose you’ve never had anywhere close to a $200K income. I happen to have the 99 Turbo Tax on this computer. We didn’t make quite $200K in that year, though we were fairly close, but we netted way, way over $120K, including both federal and California state taxes. I’d estimate you are underestimating net by at least $30K, maybe more. There were quite a few years when my income was a lot more than $200K. And yes, $120K left over is a good estimate, after FICA, federal income taxes, state taxes and 401K contributions are subtracted. > [@](#): > > $1200 a month ($300 a week) for food for 3? I live in the Bay Area, which is not cheap, and I don’t think we could have spent that much if we had tried. Does your model of a middle class family include lobster and porterhouse steak every night? I beg to differ. > [@](#): > > $1k real estate taxes? Only if you have a really expensive house - and in California, if you bought your house any time ago your taxes will be low. As I pointed out, in MD if you have an $800K house that is how much you will pay in property taxes. In Austin, TX, if you have a $400K house, your property taxes will be around $1K/month. > [@](#): > > $800 a month in utilities? Close the bloody window when the air conditioner is on and this will go right down. Cable/phones/internet/electricity/gas/water is around $800/month if not more for me now. > [@](#): > > $400 a month for car gas/car insurance? $100 a month for insurance is high, assuming you don’t get picked up for drunk driving. At $4/gallon (high) that is nearly 80 gallons a month, or almost 3 gallons a day. Maybe two long commutes in gas guzzling SUVs - but unlikely. For two cars, insurance is around $2K/year. Add the two work commutes - and you get $400/month easy. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/236 "2011-09-15T12:07:34Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > 4,000 square foot house? That’s middle class? My house is 2300 square feet, and is one of the biggest in the neighborhood. We scan the house listings faithfully, and there may be one 4,000 sq. ft house listed in the past 5 years - new, and a monstrosity. Upper middle class, yes. If your house is 2300 square feet, I doubt you belong in that category. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/237 "2011-09-15T12:20:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > There were quite a few years when my income was a lot more than $200K. And yes, $120K left over is a good estimate, after FICA, federal income taxes, state taxes and 401K contributions are subtracted. 401k contributions are voluntary savings. It is like saying I earn $200k but only have $50k left to live on after transferring $100k to my brokerage account. > [@](#): > > I beg to differ [on grocery costs of $1,200/month being high]. We have an income in the range being discussed and would view ourselves as upper middle class. We eat very well - fresh produce and good meat and fish. We spend $750/month for a family of 3. > [@](#): > > Cable/internet/electricity/gas/water is around $800 if not more for me now. We spend $550/month for all of the above, including cell phones, which you did not mention. And we do have the previously mentioned 4,000 square foot house to cool/heat. While I agree that people earning $200k a year are not rich, they can afford a very comfortable lifestyle and can easily afford to pay more taxes. And if a bit of extra taxation means they have to cancel one of their 3 premium cable movie packages or not do all their shopping at Whole Foods, then so be it. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/238 "2011-09-15T12:25:23Z")
And when you can blithely state that your 4000 sq foot house, your private school tuitions and your two cars are basic necessities, the first thing you need to do is stop bitching that you don’t have enough money. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/239 "2011-09-15T12:36:56Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > 401k contributions are voluntary savings. It is like saying I earn $200k but only have $50k left to live on after transferring $100k to my brokerage account. If you want a comfortable retirement, 401k contributions are not voluntary. > [@](#): > > We have an income in the range being discussed and would view ourselves as upper middle class. We eat very well - fresh produce and good meat and fish. We spend $750/month for a family of 3. I have a family of four. $1200 is a good estimate for my spending on groceries. And yes, my wife has a predilection for natural foods (and one of my kids needs a special diet). > [@](#): > > We spend $550/month for all of the above, including cell phones, which you did not mention. And we do have the previously mentioned 4,000 square foot house to cool/heat. My house is I think around 5.5K sq ft. As I said, $800/month for utilities is an average. > [@](#): > > While I agree that people earning $200k a year are not rich, they can afford a very comfortable lifestyle and can easily afford to pay more taxes. It is a reasonably comfortable lifestyle. It will become less comfortable with more taxes. The “easily afford” part is subjective. ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/240 "2011-09-15T12:45:17Z")
> [@](#): > > You will never be able to sell to me that an income that falls in 3% of the population is not filthy fucking rich, and it blows my mind that middle class and poor people buy this somehow. That quote - and similar ones upthread - is the problem. That statement combines quantitative data with subjective value judgements. I’m in that 3% (just barely). I have four siblings (or siblings-in-law) who make below the poverty level. I’ll never claim that it is a struggle, even in a higher cost area like DC. I make day-to-day spending decisions without thinking about where the money is coming from but have to think about budgeting for major purchases. At the same time, there are implications of a phrase like “filthy fucking rich” that just aren’t accurate for my situation. To me, rich is not an annual salary but an accumulation of wealth to where you don’t have to have a salary if you don’t want to. Everything that the government does (the things we like, the things we don’t) have to be paid for via taxes. I’ve yet to hear someone describe a tax system as “fair” that doesn’t reduce their own taxes at the expense of others. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110.md?page=13)