# $200K/year isn't rich. Why aren't we taxing corporations? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 12, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110 "2011-09-12T23:36:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/481 "2013-03-18T22:12:12Z")
Just asked my wife to make sure since she is mostly in charge of groceries. She thought for a bit and told me that $1200/month is accurate. I do have a kid with allergies and the wife cares a lot about the health of the family, so about half the food bought is bought in a “natural foods” market. The other half - normal supermarket. About $300 per week. I know this is right - when she sends me shopping, that’s about what it comes out to. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/482 "2013-03-18T22:14:28Z")
I probably spend between 200-300 a month on food, so I don’t see why 1200 for 4 people is that outrageous. I neither eat cheaply or extravagant. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/483 "2013-03-18T23:00:45Z")
I have a friend whose sister is a recovering drug addict with no income and no assets and she gets $200 a month in food stamps, and food stamps are a bare minimum, intended only as assistance and not to provide an entire month’s worth of food on their own. Still, multiply that amount by three and **Terr** is feeding his family on only twice the meager partial amount that food stamps provide. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/484 "2013-03-19T00:25:15Z")
Don’t you guys have 40% corporate tax rate of something? Our socialist government here in Denmark just lowered the corporate tax rate from 25% to 22% because even they can see a high corporate tax rate is bad for business and bad for workers. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/485 "2013-03-19T00:54:59Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Don’t you guys have 40% corporate tax rate of something? Our socialist government here in Denmark just lowered the corporate tax rate from 25% to 22% because even they can see a high corporate tax rate is bad for business and bad for workers. 35%, which is still high. But given that taxes in the US, and likely most other countries, is given as marginal tax, and thus you will pay less than the given figures. IANA international business accountant, but it would be interesting to compare. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/486 "2013-03-19T02:11:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > $4K mortgage payment Holy crap, man. The wife and I gross $120k, and our mortgage payment is $850/month, of which 500 is principal. That’s for three bedrooms, two full baths, and a big-ass yard. If we both suddenly got a 70% raise, we sure as hell wouldn’t “upgrade” to a million dollar house. We’d redo the kitchen and get a new patio. > [@](#): > > $1.2K groceries Again, bonkers. We spend maybe $100/week, including steaks couple of nights a week and wine + bourbon expenses. Though the swillin’ wine is usually less than 10 bucks a bottle and I typically drink Bulleit. > [@](#): > > $1.5K school tuition for kid (if in private school) We have some rather excellent magnet schools in my city. Cost = a couple of day’s vacation time, once, to camp out to get the kid on the list for kindergarten. > [@](#): > > $1K real estate taxes See above. We pay that much about every six months. We _do_ pay state income taxes, though. > [@](#): > > $800 utilities/internet/cable In August and February, my gas and electric bill is about $200/month. That’s the worst it gets. Internet is $40 for 20/1Mbit. Netflix is, what, $20? > [@](#): > > $400 gas/car insurance That sounds about right. > [@](#): > > $400 entertainment Ditto, but that’s a _lot_ of entertainment. A couple of bar nights a week and a couple of $120-tab dinners per month, which goes pretty far in these parts. Hell, call it $600. We got no kids. > [@](#): > > $9.3K total. Multiply by 12 = 111K - basically there is your 120K. And I really just took basics into account. Left out all kinds of expenses. I am sure you can think of quite a few. Most of your line items are utterly crazy for a family making $200k. If you have those kind of bills with that kind of income, you’re about on par with the guy standing in line at the Check-N-Go in terms of standing when it comes time to give budgeting advice. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/487 "2013-03-19T02:42:19Z")
> [@black\_rabbit](#): > > Holy crap, man. The wife and I gross $120k, and our mortgage payment is $850/month, of which 500 is principal. That’s for three bedrooms, two full baths, and a big-ass yard. If we both suddenly got a 70% raise, we sure as hell wouldn’t “upgrade” to a million dollar house. We’d redo the kitchen and get a new patio. In NY, a million buys you a decent sized studio. The Mrs and I were hanging out with some friends from out of town (former NYers) and our friend was saying how her loser cousin lives in a double-wide trailer in Jacksonville, FL and her cousin’s husband works in a movie theater. I’m like “yeah…well we make over a quarter of a million a year and live in 600 sq ft and I bet they get free movies where we have to pay $30…I wonder who the idiot is.” ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/488 "2013-03-19T03:37:43Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I have a friend whose sister is a recovering drug addict with no income and no assets and she gets $200 a month in food stamps, and food stamps are a bare minimum, intended only as assistance and not to provide an entire month’s worth of food on their own. Still, multiply that amount by three and **Terr** is feeding his family on only twice the meager partial amount that food stamps provide. I hate cooking, so I spend about $100 a month at the grocery store (including non-food necessities like toilet paper) and another $200-$300 on fast food and restaurant meals (including a 20% tip on the latter). I track my expenses pretty carefully, and can say that in 2012 I spent from $278.05 to $421.44 a month on groceries and eating out, with an average monthly cost of $367.29. So for less than double that “meager partial amount” I can afford to have many of my meals prepared, served, and cleaned up by someone else. If I had a family of three then maybe I’d spend $1,200 a month to feed them, but I sure wouldn’t be spending that much on _groceries_. Oh, and while I’m not a big fan of McDonald’s, it doesn’t cost $5 a meal to eat there unless you _want_ to spend that much. They have a [dollar menu](http://www.mcdonalds.com/us/en/food/meal_bundles/dollar_menu.html). One could easily eat every meal there for $8 a day/$240 a month plus tax. Their more expensive items tend to be things that would be a lot worse for you to eat every day (a Big Mac and large fries adds up to 1050 calories and 54 grams of fat) than the things on the dollar menu. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/489 "2013-03-19T06:15:24Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Texas has no personal income tax, so the money to fund government comes in part from higher property taxes. I know that. I was mostly making fun of Terr’s whining about high property taxes. > [@](#): > > And California would have either a much higher tax rate or a much lower spending rate if its Constitution didn’t allow its citizens to keep voting for spending increases while making it virtually impossible to raise taxes. We just voted to raise taxes, and since the voters gave the Dems a 2/3 majority in both houses, they can raise them any time - if they needed to. The projected surplus, however, comes also from an improving economy. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/490 "2013-03-19T06:18:06Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Not even HBO. Dude, you need to learn how to shop. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/491 "2013-03-19T06:22:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I love theoretical altruists. Why don’t you guys convert it to practice. Find a family, locally, that earns $15K or less and give them $1K. Find like-minded altruists around and have them do the same with other families. > > Put your money where your mouth is. Please take this stupid meme to the BBQ Pit where it can get the response it deserves. Making solitary personal sacrifices is not the same as supporting political change that, by insisting that a broad group make the sacrifice, may have a big effect, _much_ bigger than a change that depends on altruists, who will always be small in number. Various analogies have been proposed to help understand **Terr** ’s fallacy. One of the simplest (though perhaps mysterious to non-Americans) would be an American League baseball coach who doesn’t like the Designated Hitter rule. Is he a hypocrite if he still exploits the Designated Hitter rule, when his opponents do? **Terr** apparently would think so. While posting, I note that I’m replying to **Terr the Zombie**. 😃 Apologies to him in the (unlikely?) event he’s since understood the incorrectness of his reasoning here. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/492 "2013-03-19T06:26:35Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Making solitary personal sacrifices is not the same as supporting political change that, by insisting that a broad group make the sacrifice, may have a big effect, _much_ bigger than a change that depends on altruists, who will always be small in number. No, it definitely is not the same. The first involves taking money out of your pocket whereas “insisting that a broad group make the sacrifice” involves taking money out of pockets of others. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/493 "2013-03-19T06:28:16Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Dude, you need to learn how to shop. Dude, that’s the price. FIOS cable, internet, phone and wireless plan come to about $360 a month. Including taxes, of course. Yes, first couple of years it’s less. But then the introductory offer ends and switching is way too much hassle. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/494 "2013-03-19T06:28:18Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I have a friend whose sister is a recovering drug addict with no income and no assets and she gets $200 a month in food stamps, and food stamps are a bare minimum, intended only as assistance and not to provide an entire month’s worth of food on their own. Still, multiply that amount by three and **Terr** is feeding his family on only twice the meager partial amount that food stamps provide. If she doesn’t have a car she might be living in a place where the groceries have very high prices for captive customers. More suburban markets are usually cheaper. Plus, it does not cost 3x as much to feed 3 as to feed one, especially because so much stuff is cheaper in bulk. Also, people without a lot of money can’t afford to buy ahead. We like Starbucks beans, so when they go on sale for $6.99 instead of $10.99 we buy a shitload. That is something Terr can do but your friend’s sister can’t. We didn’t pay nearly that much a month when we were feeding two daughters and a boyfriend! ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/495 "2013-03-19T06:36:19Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, it definitely is not the same. The first involves taking money out of your pocket whereas “insisting that a broad group make the sacrifice” involves taking money out of pockets of others. At least some of the people who support such changes are in the income levels that would be affected. That involves taking the money out of the pockets of others and their own. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/496 "2013-03-19T07:02:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Dude, that’s the price. FIOS cable, internet, phone and wireless plan come to about $360 a month. Including taxes, of course. Yes, first couple of years it’s less. But then the introductory offer ends and switching is way too much hassle. Like Verizon’s best Internet/Phone/HD TV without premium and with 2 year contract is $110. Not sure if you mean wireless internet or cell. Is that something like what you have? For the offer, you can always call and try to cancel. Worst case is that you don’t get a deal, but they might offer to keep you on the introductory for awhile. ETA: Sorry, not best, I didn’t scroll. For 375 instead of 290 channels, it’s $130. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/497 "2013-03-19T14:59:29Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If she doesn’t have a car she might be living in a place where the groceries have very high prices for captive customers. More suburban markets are usually cheaper. Plus, it does not cost 3x as much to feed 3 as to feed one, especially because so much stuff is cheaper in bulk. Also, people without a lot of money can’t afford to buy ahead. We like Starbucks beans, so when they go on sale for $6.99 instead of $10.99 we buy a shitload. That is something Terr can do but your friend’s sister can’t. > We didn’t pay nearly that much a month when we were feeding two daughters and a boyfriend! So it’s your opinion that because **Terr** isn’t feeding his family on a bare bones minimum and buying in bulk and and stretching his family food dollars to the maximum, he’s therefore “rich” and can damn well afford to let the government seize the surplus to spend on people who don’t earn (and likely haven’t worked and studied and applied themselves) as much? I definitely see selfishness in that scenario, and it ain’t comin’ from **Terr**. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/498 "2013-03-19T16:42:10Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > So it’s your opinion that because **Terr** isn’t feeding his family on a bare bones minimum and buying in bulk and and stretching his family food dollars to the maximum, he’s therefore “rich” and can damn well afford to let the government seize the surplus to spend on people who don’t earn (and likely haven’t worked and studied and applied themselves) as much? > > I definitely see selfishness in that scenario, and it ain’t comin’ from **Terr**. I don’t know his income, so I don’t know if he is rich or not, but I suspect he is rich-ish, since he seems not to care much about economizing - which is not the same as subsisting on a bare bones diet. Lots of people here, including me, eat steak all the time and spend a lot less. Having enough money means you can choose to economize, but you don’t have to. I’m fine with it, since his improving the margins of the groceries gives them enough profit to support sales so that people like me minimize their margins. Richness is a measure of income - Michael Jackson was still rich even though his finances were a mess. Just don’t plead poverty while eating like a drunken sailor. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/499 "2013-03-19T16:45:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Dude, that’s the price. FIOS cable, internet, phone and wireless plan come to about $360 a month. Including taxes, of course. Yes, first couple of years it’s less. But then the introductory offer ends and switching is way too much hassle. A wireless plan for multiple smartphones with unlimited data on top of the other stuff makes that price a lot more reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110/500 "2013-03-19T16:55:49Z")
I think the bottom line is “rich” is a relative term. No matter how “well off” someone is, there is someone richer and its too easy to think “I’m not rich, I don’t have X. Truly rich people have X.” The discussion of steak and the mention of FIOS illustrate this. To many, steak and FIOS is a luxury of the rich. But if you can afford steak and FIOS, then they become everyday items and something else constitutes a luxury item (e.g. caviar). Not everyone has steak and FIOS! To someone who can afford caviar everyday, caviar becomes a non-luxury and a luxury item is something else, like a private island. There is always something out of our price range, so we tend to fixate on that and dismiss all the luxuries we do have as ‘common’ and ‘not rich.’ A long time ago my aunts and uncles took me out to dinner in San Francisco (fancy restaurant). I was shocked at the prices. 12 dollars for soup! Now that I’m older and pulling in a higher wage, 12 dollars for soup doesn’t seem exorbitant to me (or even higher due to inflation), but I’m sure it is to many. Now I look at menus and see 1/2 oz of caviar for 95 dollars! Holy crap! If I’m lucky, maybe someday I’ll look at 95 dollar caviar and be ho-hum about it. Edit: By the way, everyone seems to be accepting that private school isn’t indicative as “rich.” I don’t know how things go now, but back in the day, only rich kids went to private school. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/200k-year-isnt-rich-why-arent-we-taxing-corporations/596110.md?page=26)