# 2010 FIFA World Cup South Africa **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 10, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677 "2010-06-10T17:32:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 109
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2161 "2010-07-02T21:52:02Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > But they haven’t been. Does your definition of cheating depend on something other than what the rules of the game _actually_ say? What an odd question. The things i’ve defined as cheating are explicitly and clearly outlawed in the rules of the game. By your standards, using a corked bat in baseball is not cheating, because the rules allow for a specific punishment. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2162 "2010-07-02T21:52:52Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > But they haven’t been. Does your definition of cheating depend on something other than what the rules of the game _actually_ say? **The rules say that it’s cheating!** That isn’t even in question. Uruguay decided that it could handle being cheaters cause the punishment wasn’t strict enough. I hope Uruguay get thrashed! ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2163 "2010-07-02T21:53:03Z")
That’s not cheating that’s football. Suarez did what he had to; sacrificed himself for his team knowing full well he’d be red-carded. Want to “blame” someone, blame Asamoah – he had it from the spot kick to put his team through. And this comes from someone who’s not exactly a South American footy fan. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2164 "2010-07-02T21:54:37Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > It’s no more cheating than intentionally fouling a basketball player at the end of the game to make him shoot free throws. Except that penalty kicks are way more of a sure thing than FTs. They’re actually not. But they count for a lot more. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2165 "2010-07-02T22:01:31Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > What an odd question. > > The things i’ve defined as cheating are explicitly and clearly outlawed in the rules of the game. > > By your standards, using a corked bat in baseball is not cheating, because the rules allow for a specific punishment. The difference to me is that a person using a corked bat is trying to avoid taking the punishment, and is therefore attempting to act outside the rules of the game. Henry cheated against Ireland, Maradona cheated in '86, the Ivory Coast guy cheated to get Kaka sent off. This guy didn’t cheat. ---
**Author:** ![wintertime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c68b51/32.png) [@wintertime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wintertime)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2166 "2010-07-02T22:03:33Z")
Poor Gyan, this will hound him. Well, something has come up and I am going to miss the following matches. I hope I am back for the final. Till then, ¡mucha suerte! Veel succes! ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2167 "2010-07-02T22:03:56Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > **The rules say that it’s cheating!** That isn’t even in question. Uruguay decided that it could handle being cheaters cause the punishment wasn’t strict enough. The rules also say if you play the ball beyond the end line the other team gets a corner. Conceding a corner, then, is cheating that I can handle “cause the punishment wasn’t strict enough.” **mhendo** , a corked bat is defined by the attempt to avoid detection, not the attempt to accept the penalty for using a corked bat. A foul to give up free throws is defined by the explicit attempt to _accept_ the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2168 "2010-07-02T22:10:33Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > That is one of the differences between America and, well everybody else it seems. It took me a log time to understand the “Professional foul” was a nasty sneered term for soccer folks. In every U.S. sport it is considered the mark of a good player to take a foul for the benefit of the team, as long as it isn’t violent. Wrapping the guy up before an easy dunk, hooking the guy on the breakaway, holding the wide receiver when your ass is beat. > > They are all considered great plays, and there is no implication of cheating on other side just because it was deliberate. We expect that the fouled man will get his ascribed penalty make up, and there is a lot of debate whether the penalty is determined to be harmful enough. But it’s never a matter of character judgment or cheating. It’s simply a matter of trying to win. I think you are making some pretty sweeping generalizations when you say that’s the difference between America and everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8c91f0/32.png) [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bam_Boo_Gut)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2169 "2010-07-02T22:11:52Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > That’s not cheating that’s football. Suarez did what he had to; sacrificed himself for his team knowing full well he’d be red-carded. Oh grrrrr, he behaved badly when he received the red too, what, like he thought he’d get away with it. Well, others have so … Anyway - seconded - poor Gyan ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2170 "2010-07-02T22:14:11Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > I think you are making some pretty sweeping generalizations when you say that’s the difference between America and everyone else. I assumed the tone of the sentence made it clear I was being hyperbolic, Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2171 "2010-07-02T22:16:06Z")
Its not cheating. Everybody followed the rules, Suarez got his punishment. It’s only cheating if there’s no punishment. It was a professional foul. Which, for better or worse, is a BIG BIG part of football. I’m guessing most people who say it is cheating have never actually played football? Because every defender knows that if a guy is through on goal, in the last minute, you take him down, get a red card. If the other team are breaking quickly, your man beats you and is away, you take him down. Yellow card. Most teams I have played for have positioned someone just outside the box on attacking corners. Their job is to get the ball back into the box if it is cleared their direction, or if any defenders try to break with the ball, his job is to take them down, get a yellow, and give everyone a chance to get back in position. Once he is booked someone else takes over that role. The point is, once you get to even a semi-decent level of football, this “cheating” is rampant. Its all very well armchair enthusiasts being outraged, but 99% of players would have done the same, and the one percent who wouldn’t would have been letting down their team-mates. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2172 "2010-07-02T22:18:03Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > The rules also say if you play the ball beyond the end line the other team gets a corner. Conceding a corner, then, is cheating that I can handle “cause the punishment wasn’t strict enough.” > > **mhendo** , a corked bat is defined by the attempt to avoid detection, not the attempt to accept the penalty for using a corked bat. A foul to give up free throws is defined by the explicit attempt to _accept_ the consequences. It’s a cheat not just because it’s just against one rule. But it’s a flant of many rules and the entire spirit of the beautiful game. For instance a **handball** is a foul, a **deliberate handball** is a serious foul and a **deliberate handball that robs the opposing team of an obvious goal** is a very serious foul. Add to fact the punishment involves sending the player out of the game and that this was the end of the game makes the punishment totally irrelevant. Add that to the fact the goal that was robbed from Ghana **was a winning goal** makes this a farce! The Uruguayans knew that this was cheating and bad sportsmanship and decided that this was okay. They can go screw for this. I hope they lose! ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2173 "2010-07-02T22:21:17Z")
> [@borschevsky](#): > > The difference to me is that a person using a corked bat is trying to avoid taking the punishment, and is therefore attempting to act outside the rules of the game. Henry cheated against Ireland, Maradona cheated in '86, the Ivory Coast guy cheated to get Kaka sent off. This guy didn’t cheat. Huh? I assume you’re talking about the Hand of God goal? That was no more or less intentional than today’s handball. The only difference between the two is that Maradona’s was missed by the referee, while today’s was not. Here’s a hypothetical for you: if the referee had somehow managed to miss Suarez’s handball today (and, from the replays, it looked like he might have gotten the call from the assistant referee), do you think Suarez would have walked up to him and said, “Hey, i kept it out with my hand. You should send me off and award a penalty kick”? If your answer to that is “no,” then surely Suarez cheated just as much as Maradona did. Does the cheating depend, for you, on whether or not the official sees the infraction? Because _that_ would be a pretty bizarre definition of cheating. > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > **mhendo** , a corked bat is defined by the attempt to avoid detection… It is? Remember, you’re the one brought “the rules” into this, so lets looks at the MLB rules to see where the attempt to avoid detection is part of the definition of a corked bat. Rule 6.06 (d): > [@](#): > > A batter is out for illegal action when: > > ``` > (d) He uses or attempts to use a bat that, in the umpire's judgment, has been altered or tampered with in such a way to improve the distance factor or cause an unusual reaction on the baseball. This includes, bats that are filled, flat surfaced, nailed, hollowed, grooved or covered with a substance such as paraffin, wax, etc. No advancement on the bases will be allowed and any out or outs made during a play shall stand. In addition to being called out, the player shall be ejected from the game and may be subject to additional penalties as determined by his League Punishment advisor. > > ``` Hmmm… ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2174 "2010-07-02T22:27:11Z")
The commenter at the BBC website said it is not cheating, but that is just one person’s interpretation. He also lambasted FIFA for not having an awarded goal option for the referee there. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2175 "2010-07-02T22:29:03Z")
Assuming “hmmm” is the sound of you thinking, keep at it. A corked bat is only advantageous if you’re allowed to use it. True or false? You’re only allowed to use it if you don’t get caught. True or false? The advantage to Uruguay existed whether or not Suarez got away with the handball. True or false? ---
**Author:** ![Gotterfunken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/58956e/32.png) [@Gotterfunken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gotterfunken)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2176 "2010-07-02T22:31:33Z")
I was pretty much a neutral in this game, but if a team I supported were defending a level score at the end of a knock-out round match, and if in the final minute the other side had a clear shot on goal that couldn’t be stopped on the line by a defender without him sticking out an arm (or flapping it away like Suarez did) … I would hope that the defender WOULD commit handball, knowing that he’d be sent off and we’d have to face a penalty. Like **carm** and others have pointed out, that’s football. Sometimes a player has to sacrifice himself for his team by committing a foul, risking a yellow or a red. It’s better to do that than to risk giving up a certain goal, particularly if it’s the final minute of extra time in a World Cup quarterfinal. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2177 "2010-07-02T22:33:14Z")
I agree with Octopus. The problem there, quite obviously, is with the RULE, not what any player did. Suarez was perfectly right to knock the ball away with his hand. Suarez was not put on his nation’s team and sent to South Africa to be a nice guy, he was sent there to win the World Cup. It’s his job to help win the game, not make fans of other nations happy. What he did was perfectly within the rules, and he accepted the outcome; you didn’t see him spend two minutes pissing and moaning that he hadn’t touched the ball with his hand. And in any event, it’s not like in the scramble you could expect the man to balance the issues of sportsmanship versus interpretations of the hand ball rule and consider precedent and what happened at the Cup in blah blah blah; he just reacted. See ball, stop ball. It strikes me as being amazingly obvious that the rulebook is seriously flawed. If a hand ball prevents what would otherwise have been a goal beyond any doubt or question, a goal should be awarded. Other sports have similar rules, why can’t soccer? ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2178 "2010-07-02T22:33:23Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > It’s a cheat not just because it’s just against one rule. But it’s a flant of many rules and the entire spirit of the beautiful game. > > For instance a **handball** is a foul, a **deliberate handball** is a serious foul and a **deliberate handball that robs the opposing team of an obvious goal** is a very serious foul. Add to fact the punishment involves sending the player out of the game and that this was the end of the game makes the punishment totally irrelevant. Add that to the fact the goal that was robbed from Ghana **was a winning goal** makes this a farce! > > The Uruguayans knew that this was cheating and bad sportsmanship and decided that this was okay. They can go screw for this. I hope they lose! Have you ever played football? I find it hard to believe that someone who has would have this attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2179 "2010-07-02T22:37:23Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > That is one of the differences between America and, well everybody else it seems. It took me a log time to understand the “Professional foul” was a nasty sneered term for soccer folks. In every U.S. sport it is considered the mark of a good player to take a foul for the benefit of the team, as long as it isn’t violent. Wrapping the guy up before an easy dunk, hooking the guy on the breakaway, holding the wide receiver when your ass is beat. > > They are all considered great plays, and there is no implication of cheating on other side just because it was deliberate. We expect that the fouled man will get his ascribed penalty make up, and there is a lot of debate whether the penalty is determined to be harmful enough. But it’s never a matter of character judgment or cheating. It’s simply a matter of trying to win. Yes but those games weren`t invented by the English: they have a curious notion about what fair play means and they are pissed off at the rest of the world because they suck in every major sport they invented 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2180 "2010-07-02T22:38:27Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > Was it beautiful like Maradona’s first goal against England in 1986, or beautiful like Rudi Voller smashng his elbow into Maradona’s face about half an hour into the 1990 final? One of those did not involve deliberately hurting another player. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677.md?page=108) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677.md?page=110)