# 2010 FIFA World Cup South Africa **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 10, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677 "2010-06-10T17:32:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 110
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2181 "2010-07-02T22:38:34Z")
> [@carm](#): > > Have you ever played football? I find it hard to believe that someone who has would have this attitude. What do you want, my credentials? I play the game regularly, what about you? I’ll say this again, I hope that the Dutch kicks Uruguay’s ass in the semis! ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2182 "2010-07-02T22:38:48Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Assuming “hmmm” is the sound of you thinking, keep at it. A corked bat is only advantageous if you’re allowed to use it. True or false? You’re only allowed to use it if you don’t get caught. True or false? > > The advantage to Uruguay existed whether or not Suarez got away with the handball. True or false? If i had based my accusation of cheating on whether or not one gets away with it, you might have a point. I didn’t, so you don’t. I’m not arguing that you’re wrong, per se, about what constitutes cheating. My point is simply that your definition of cheating is no more, and certainly no less subjective than my own. For me, breaking the rules intentionally, as the Uruguayan player did today, in order to gain advantage, is cheating. And it’s cheating even if FIFA has not, in its wisdom, decided to levy a penalty i deem appropriate. The fact that you disagree with my position isn’t going to change it, even with _aaaaaalll_ the respect i have your great acumen. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2183 "2010-07-02T22:39:52Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > If your answer to that is “no,” then surely Suarez cheated just as much as Maradona did. Does the cheating depend, for you, on whether or not the official sees the infraction? Because _that_ would be a pretty bizarre definition of cheating. I would not say that the cheating depends on whether the official sees the infraction, but rather the intention of the player. For example, the Ivory Coast player who got Kaka booked was attempting to fool the ref into misapplying the rules of the game. Similarly for Henry, who was attempting to handle the ball without taking the appropriate penalty. Having said that, from some descriptions here it’s possible that Suarez was in fact hoping to get away with it. Ethically, if the penalty had not been called, Suarez probably should have brought it to the referee’s attention, although of course this type of thing essentially never happens. Similarly the German keeper should probably have acknowledged Lampard’s goal. Of course such things actually happening are pretty rare. I should perhaps have not included Maradona as it is before my time and I am not really aware of all details. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2184 "2010-07-02T22:41:47Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It strikes me as being amazingly obvious that the rulebook is seriously flawed. If a hand ball prevents what would otherwise have been a goal beyond any doubt or question, a goal should be awarded. Bingo! ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2185 "2010-07-02T22:46:02Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It strikes me as being amazingly obvious that the rulebook is seriously flawed. If a hand ball prevents what would otherwise have been a goal beyond any doubt or question, a goal should be awarded. Other sports have similar rules, why can’t soccer? Look, whatever my thoughts on the guy’s actions (i still don’t think you can ignore intentionality, even in the heat of the moment), this is the key, for me. The referee should have had it within his power to turn and point towards the middle of the field, awarding a goal to Ghana based on the fact that, but for the handball, the ball would clearly have gone in. I think, more generally, that any rule in any sport where the penalty for breaking the rule is less onerous than the consequences of not breaking the rule needs to be addressed. ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2186 "2010-07-02T22:54:41Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > What do you want, my credentials? I play the game regularly, what about you? > > I’ll say this again, I hope that the Dutch kicks Uruguay’s ass in the semis! Every single dutch player would have done the same. Does playing regularly mean that you are on a team, or not on a team? I’ve played at a fairly high level for 13 years and I have seen this sort of situation plenty of times. I have never before heard someone describe it as cheating, everyone just accepts it as part of the game. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2187 "2010-07-02T23:01:53Z")
> [@Estilicon](#): > > One of those did not involve deliberately hurting another player. And the one that did is almost forgotten. in the rush to make sure Argentina weren’t champions, the Mexican gynaecologist referee ignored this assault, ignored a blatant penalty for Argentina and then gave the Bosch a penalty when the poodle haired Voller who couldn’t hit a barn door from a yard that day dived in the box, probably still wondering whether Head and Shoulders would get Frank Rikjaard’s phlegm out of his hair. Enjoyed Klinnsmann’s breakdancing though… …and Monzon deserved a red card for his haircut. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2188 "2010-07-02T23:02:29Z")
> [@carm](#): > > Every single dutch player would have done the same. > Does playing regularly mean that you are on a team, or not on a team? I’ve played at a fairly high level for 13 years and I have seen this sort of situation plenty of times. I have never before heard someone describe it as cheating, everyone just accepts it as part of the game. Well you can shove that: “true players take it on the chin” bunk. I hope the Uruguayans lose badly! Is there something else you’d like to share about your personal history? Or have I finally irreconcilably offended you by my nasty, nasty ill-wishes towards Uruguay’s team? ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2189 "2010-07-02T23:13:24Z")
> [@Estilicon](#): > > Yes but those games weren`t invented by the English: they have a curious notion about what fair play means and they are pissed off at the rest of the world because they suck in every major sport they invented 🙂 I think you’ll find The Boat Race is won by an English team every year… ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2190 "2010-07-02T23:16:47Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Well you can shove that: “true players take it on the chin” bunk. I hope the Uruguayans lose badly! > > Is there something else you’d like to share about your personal history? Or have I finally irreconcilably offended you by my nasty, nasty ill-wishes towards Uruguay’s team? Hah I’m not offended, just curious.. What about the cynicism of the Dutch today? The constant fouling by de Jong and van Bommel? Surely that was as bad, if not worse? ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2191 "2010-07-02T23:17:33Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Beautiful if you like cheating. Then I suppose I Like cheating. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2192 "2010-07-02T23:28:57Z")
Also, to those protesting this hand ball, I suppose the constant “professional” fouls against Maradona (in his time), Messi, and others with all the intention of _ **not letting them play football** _ were just as vigorously protested by you? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2193 "2010-07-02T23:29:44Z")
Anyone who doesn’t think every single player in the history of soccer wouldn’t have done the exact same thing is fooling themselves. Edit: make it any sport. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2194 "2010-07-02T23:37:28Z")
> [@carm](#): > > Hah I’m not offended, just curious.. > > What about the cynicism of the Dutch today? The constant fouling by de Jong and van Bommel? Surely that was as bad, if not worse? Sure…whatever. I only caught the tail end of that game, but I didn’t see anyone knocking goals out of nets!..but whatever…I don’t bother with games I don’t really care about… bah… **Mhendo** [said it best](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12644143&postcount=2185). ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2195 "2010-07-02T23:52:17Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Look, whatever my thoughts on the guy’s actions (i still don’t think you can ignore intentionality, even in the heat of the moment), this is the key, for me. > > The referee should have had it within his power to turn and point towards the middle of the field, awarding a goal to Ghana based on the fact that, but for the handball, the ball would clearly have gone in. > > I think, more generally, that any rule in any sport where the penalty for breaking the rule is less onerous than the consequences of not breaking the rule needs to be addressed. I think I agree, although there can be difficulties with the application of such rules (people complain now about allowed goals and awarded penalties, so just imagine awarded goals). I can’t condemn someone for exploiting the rules, even if it does sometimes seem cynical or unsatisfying in some aesthetic sense. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2196 "2010-07-02T23:52:34Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Anyone who doesn’t think every single player in the history of soccer wouldn’t have done the exact same thing is fooling themselves. Edit: make it any sport. I beg to differ old chap… [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corinthian\_F.C](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corinthian_F.C). ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2197 "2010-07-02T23:53:01Z")
Many people on this thread have complained about players diving, without comeback from anyone trying to defend the practice. But apparently, the game-deciding deliberate foul by Suarez was entirely different, and showed great team spirit. And anyone that thinks otherwise is a wimpering simpleton that doesn’t understand football. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2198 "2010-07-02T23:57:21Z")
One thing is for sure: all this drama is absolutely part of the game, as always has been, and always will be. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2199 "2010-07-03T00:00:28Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > But apparently, the game-deciding deliberate foul by Suarez was entirely different, and showed great team spirit. Yep it is entirely different. Diving = rolling around crying like a 3 year old girls claiming her brother pushed her so she can get more ice cream, taking advantage of rules put there to protect players, and often giving up any chance to actually score because the dive is easier= pussy. Doing every thing you can without injuring someone to keep your team alive in a pure do-or-die situation, then taking the penalty quietly and walking off=good play. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2200 "2010-07-03T00:08:05Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > Yep it is entirely different. Diving = rolling around crying like a 3 year old girls claiming her brother pushed her so she can get more ice cream, taking advantage of rules put there to protect players, and often giving up any chance to actually score because the dive is easier= pussy. Doing every thing you can without injuring someone to keep your team alive in a pure do-or-die situation, then taking the penalty quietly and walking off=good play. Exactly. But by all means, if you dont like football, then stop watching it, the rest of us will continue to enjoy and suffer it without you, “andá pibe, andá a jugar al cricket”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677.md?page=109) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677.md?page=111)