# 2010 FIFA World Cup South Africa **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 10, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677 "2010-06-10T17:32:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 133
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2641 "2010-07-13T01:08:47Z")
Not at all. I had no idea who he was until this WC, and I’m definitely not a Brazil homer. When Luis Fabiano scored his “great” goal in the same game, I was shouting obscenities at the officials for failing to notice the two obvious handballs involved. [This footage](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L68AzFchcs&feature=related) (though grainy) makes it clearer. Even if (as you claim) he hits it towards the goal accidentally, you have to admit he belts it. There was no way _anyone_ was going to get on the end of a cross moving that quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2642 "2010-07-13T02:14:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not at all. I had no idea who he was until this WC, and I’m definitely not a Brazil homer. When Luis Fabiano scored his “great” goal in the same game, I was shouting obscenities at the officials for failing to notice the two obvious handballs involved. > > [This footage](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L68AzFchcs&feature=related) (though grainy) makes it clearer. Even if (as you claim) he hits it towards the goal accidentally, you have to admit he belts it. There was no way _anyone_ was going to get on the end of a cross moving that quickly. Right. The way he strikes the ball plus the power he hits it makes it pretty clear he was shooting. No one hits a cross that hard with that spin from that spot. Shot all the way. I was kind of baffled that the commentators (Harkes & Martin Tyler) kept questioning it. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2643 "2010-07-13T02:29:12Z")
> [@Coldfire](#): > > As for the progression of the match under a different ref who would have given cards where needed, well, see my first post this morning. Webb dealt yellows where they weren’t warranted (Heitinga’s second), failed to card where he should have (Puyol vs. Robben), and most importantly, was scared to pull the direct red on De Jong. Had De Jong been sent off when he should have, it would have vastly changed the Dutch perspective on the game, and certainly on any further fouls. As it was, Webb’s wishy-washy interpretation of the rules made for a match in which the players just didn’t respect the ref. It’s easy to attribute that to Hollands admittedly violent gameplay, but it could also be argued that a better ref would have kept the violence in check. Preferably whilst dealing out the right colour card where and when applicable. > > This all doesn’t change one bit about the outcome, and España won it fair and square. I’m genuinely happy for them, I just wish it wasn’t Holland they had to beat to do it. 🙂 I disagree with this wholeheartedly. All but one of the examples you cite of Webb screwing up “the progression of the match” are from late in the game. Heitinga’s second card? (which I agree was a bit harsh) 110th minute! Puyol’s should-have foul? 83rd minute! The only thing that stopped the rough Dutch fouls was when 50% of the team were working on yellows. (Shockingly, this is not hyperbole; 5 Dutch players were booked by the 56th minute.) What else is Webb supposed to do? Send off two or three Dutch players and forever mar the final? Ironically, the thing you most criticize Webb for is NOT sending off a Dutch player. In the 29th minute of a World Cup Final. This is too bizarre for words. We all know that if that had happened, all the Dutch fans (and a lot of others spectators too) would have said that the referee was over-officious and ruined the final. Somehow he is getting criticized for being both too strict and overly indulgent at the exact same time. A lot of people are remembering Pierluigi affectionately but I remember him having a couple shocking matches too. Everyone makes mistakes, even wise old bald Italian men. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2644 "2010-07-13T03:46:49Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not at all. I had no idea who he was until this WC… You had no idea who Maicon is? That’s very surprising based on your knowledge of soccer. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2645 "2010-07-13T03:53:12Z")
I don’t really follow South American football outside the World Cup, and I haven’t paid much attention to the game at all since the last UEFA Championship. So, I missed Inter’s Champions’ League win and their last three Serie A titles. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2646 "2010-07-13T06:37:13Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > The only thing that stopped the rough Dutch fouls was when 50% of the team were working on yellows. (Shockingly, this is not hyperbole; 5 Dutch players were booked by the 56th minute.) What else is Webb supposed to do? Send off two or three Dutch players and forever mar the final? Agree with this 100%. The Dutch came out with an intensely cynical strategy and Webb did a reasonable job in the circumstances. His yellows against the Dutch in the first half did work and the final was quite better afterwards. You had around 75 minutes of decent football where both teams created opportunities and the better team eventually scored. If Webb had used the red early, the game would have been effectively over and in all likelihood the Spanish would have won easily anyway. ---
**Author:** ![footballisplayedwithyourfeet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9f8e36/32.png) [@footballisplayedwithyourfeet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/footballisplayedwithyourfeet)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2647 "2010-07-13T09:33:52Z")
I agree with much that **coldfire** has said, also I was getting sick with the spanish asking for yellows everytime they were touched (this in itself a yellow card offense and if handled as such would have Iniesta and Xavi out with two yellows by the 10th minute). this off course would never happen and it would be ridiculous if it had. While watching the game I really didn’t think it was that hard - especially the first half - and Webb made a meal out of it for both sides (those two spanish yellows were just as ridiculous as the ones for Bommel and Heitinga). I’m conflicted about De Jong, most pictures don’t show how the ball was hanging in mid air between Alonso and him and I am not sure he didn’t try to get to the ball. In any case, the result should have had him sent of, I’m just not sure it was intentional but when you raise you foot like that you better be sure no one is near you. About the goal, these things happen, but conceding a goal in the 118th minute in the World Cup fnal after just being denied the ball (corner) and a hint of offside (which I was certain of at the time, but not so much now) will get people emotional, it did with me anyway. In the end I do think Spain were a bit better, but not that much - we saw hardly any of the passing game. All in all congrats to **Red Fury** and Spain, I’ll just go end be ill for a week or two. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2648 "2010-07-13T10:12:31Z")
> [@footballisplayedwithyourfeet](#): > > I agree with much that **coldfire** has said, also I was getting sick with the spanish asking for yellows everytime they were touched (this in itself a yellow card offense and if handled as such would have Iniesta and Xavi out with two yellows by the 10th minute). this off course would never happen and it would be ridiculous if it had. I read an interesting article analyzing that. Spain has traditionally been very unsuccessful with teams of big, energetic manly men, playing fairly straightforward football only to choke when facing the Italians, who would disrupt their flow every time using tactical fowls. That’s what the Dutch tried in the final, goad them into making mistakes or even retaliating, and instead of falling for that, they exaggerated the fouls they had received and went to pressure the referee into being more strict. In a way, it was an Italy-Netherlands final, with the Spaniards playing teh Dutch. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2649 "2010-07-13T13:41:38Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I disagree. The players doesn’t have to fall down for it to be a free kick and the booking. A slight pull back, allowing someone to catch up with him, is enough. I don’t see a pull back. I see a hand on a shoulder and a player diving because he knew he had little chance to get to the ball. Theres no way it was a foul. It was a clear and obvious dive. > [@amanset](#): > > I actually think that the Puyol didn’t really do much at all. I remember debating this quite a lot at the pub last night. I just can’t see the offence there. Football is not a non-contact sport. Of your examples, one was a minor pull back that would definitely have affected a situation where the player was through on goal, the other was a minor scuffle that happens all the time without any sort of foul given. I can’t believe you are arguing that Heitinga fouled but Puyol didn’t. Puyol wrapped his arm around Robben’s waist, and then swept his legs like he was a power ranger. It was as clear as a foul could be, and was an obvious yellow. Which, IIRC, would have been his second. Does anyone have a youtube of Heitinga’s first foul? I recall the Spanish player rolling around for a while until the ref noticed and brought the card out. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2650 "2010-07-13T13:53:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I don’t really follow South American football outside the World Cup, and I haven’t paid much attention to the game at all since the last UEFA Championship. So, I missed Inter’s Champions’ League win and their last three Serie A titles. I only learned about him while watching the Champions League. But they kept referring to him as “the best right back in the world” or something. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2651 "2010-07-13T14:00:22Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Does anyone have a youtube of Heitinga’s first foul? I recall the Spanish player rolling around for a while until the ref noticed and brought the card out. I just went back on my TiVo and rewatched it. The replay shows that Webb has turned his back just as Heitinga kicks Villa’s legs (a full beat after he passes the ball) like he was taking a free kick. You’re correct in that Webb doesn’t stop play until Villa is flailing around and the Spanish kick the ball out. I don’t know whether he was going off the word of his linesman, but you can’t argue that the first yellow wasn’t deserved. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2652 "2010-07-13T14:09:16Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I don’t see a pull back. I see a hand on a shoulder and a player diving because he knew he had little chance to get to the ball. Theres no way it was a foul. It was a clear and obvious dive. A dive doesn’t stop it being a foul. You don’t have to pull a man down for it to be a foul. > [@treis](#): > > I can’t believe you are arguing that Heitinga fouled but Puyol didn’t. Puyol wrapped his arm around Robben’s waist, and then swept his legs like he was a power ranger. It was as clear as a foul could be, and was an obvious yellow. Which, IIRC, would have been his second. I honestly don’t think so. I can’t find a decent YouTube video of it, but it appeared to me then and does from what I can see now that the original contact was much, much more shoulder to shoulder than Heitinga (who was clearly well behind the man) and as for sweeping his legs - are you really suggesting he did that on purpose? The guy was running as fast as he could and went arse over tit. Let’s also not forget that Robben should have been sent off two minutes before the goal for kicking the ball away (aka time wasting) when he was already on a yellow. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2653 "2010-07-13T14:17:25Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > I disagree with this wholeheartedly. All but one of the examples you cite of Webb screwing up “the progression of the match” are from late in the game. Heitinga’s second card? (which I agree was a bit harsh) 110th minute! Puyol’s should-have foul? 83rd minute! Hi Erdosain. 🙂 Granted the examples I underscored are from later in the game, but there was a 10 minute stretch in the first half in which the ref handed out 6 cards IIRC (of which 4 or 5 to Holland). At least half of them were dubious, and quickly thereafter Nigel de Jong didn’t get the red he was begging for with that horrendous foul. All I’m saying is that the ref lost a lot of credibility in that time span, up to and including the De Jong foul. And in my opinion, he never regained composure, nor full grip on the match again. To be fair, with the emotions settling down a bit, I’ll grant Webb that it was a DAMN tough game to ref. And his inconsitency affected the Spanish negatively as well, at times. > [@](#): > > The only thing that stopped the rough Dutch fouls was when 50% of the team were working on yellows. (Shockingly, this is not hyperbole; 5 Dutch players were booked by the 56th minute.) What else is Webb supposed to do? Send off two or three Dutch players and forever mar the final? Well, it’s all academic now, but like I said: I think if De Jong had gotten his well-deserved send-off, it would have drastically changed the game. Perhaps not in outcome (again, I’m not claiming the Dutch were robbed of the cup), but certainly in everything else. > [@](#): > > Ironically, the thing you most criticize Webb for is NOT sending off a Dutch player. In the 29th minute of a World Cup Final. This is too bizarre for words. We all know that if that had happened, all the Dutch fans (and a lot of others spectators too) would have said that the referee was over-officious and ruined the final. Somehow he is getting criticized for being both too strict and overly indulgent at the exact same time. Nothing ironic in calling a ref inconsistent - which is what I’m critisising Webb for. And which he demonstrably was. Had De Jong been sent off, I’m sure some Dutch would have bitched and moaned about it. They would have been wrong. As I type this, over half a million people are lining the canals in Amsterdam where the Dutch team are getting a warm welcome per canal cruise. I’m not gonna salute a bunch of losers, of course. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2654 "2010-07-13T14:30:43Z")
> [@carm](#): > > He hits across the ball with his right foot. This is not what you do when trying to pull a ball back, in fact, it’s the complete opposite to what you do when you pull the ball back. > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > You’re not seriously claiming that people should try to cross the ball, from the right side of the field, with their left foot? What I said is he hit _across_ the ball with his right. That curls it clockwise, so it curls to the right. When crossing fromthe byline you wrap your foot around the ball, hitting with your instep and curling it anti-clockwise, so that it curls to the left, rather than curling out of play, it swerves away from the keeper and towards the strikers. > [@](#): > > **RNATB** , really? You can’t shoot a ball straight for 7 yards? There’s plenty of space to hit it straight in. Shit, you see near post shots for that angle all the time. However, what you don’t see is a guy aim his hips back across the goal to do it. He opened his hips up while he was kicking. His hips were pointed back across the goal. Did either of you guys play, or are you just fans? I’d imagine I’ve played at a much higher level than you. I coach kids as well. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2655 "2010-07-13T14:44:49Z")
> [@Coldfire](#): > > Nothing ironic in calling a ref inconsistent - which is what I’m critisising Webb for. And which he demonstrably was. Had De Jong been sent off, I’m sure some Dutch would have bitched and moaned about it. They would have been wrong. Fair enough. However, I am still trying to wrap my head around your argument that the ref did you a disservice by not forcing you to play with ten men for an hour against the best team in football. 😉 That’s the kind of injustice I could use more of! ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2656 "2010-07-13T14:48:36Z")
> [@Coldfire](#): > > Hi Erdosain. 🙂 > > Granted the examples I underscored are from later in the game, but there was a 10 minute stretch in the first half in which the ref handed out 6 cards IIRC (of which 4 or 5 to Holland). At least half of them were dubious, No, no they were not. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2657 "2010-07-13T14:55:09Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > Fair enough. However, I am still trying to wrap my head around your argument that the ref did you a disservice by not forcing you to play with ten men for an hour against the best team in football. 😉 That’s the kind of injustice I could use more of! Well, I’m saying that in my best impression of an unbiased spectator. How’s that working? 🙂 Calling a spade a spade, that was a PURPLE card for Nigel de Jong. And everybody knows it. Those who deny it are lying, including mr De Jong himself. So had he gotten the red, the only person Holland could have been mad at would have been Nigel himself, for such a vile and unnecessary foul. If you’re gonna split someone in half, at least make it count for something. 😉 **amanset** : yes they were SO THERE. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2658 "2010-07-13T14:57:32Z")
> [@Coldfire](#): > > Well, I’m saying that in my best impression of an unbiased spectator. How’s that working? 🙂 > > Calling a spade a spade, that was a PURPLE card for Nigel de Jong. And everybody knows it. Those who deny it are lying, including mr De Jong himself. So had he gotten the red, the only person Holland could have been mad at would have been Nigel himself, for such a vile and unnecessary foul. If you’re gonna split someone in half, at least make it count for something. 😉 > > **amanset** : yes they were SO THERE. 🙂 Frankly he deserved at least a yellow for being called Nigel. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2659 "2010-07-13T15:13:06Z")
I’ll give you that one. The English (or other foreign) first name phenomenon was quite popular in The Netherlands in the late 1970’s and 1980’s, predominantly in the (for lack of a better word) lower socio-economic rungs. Hence our whole line-up of Nigel, Wesley, Joey (well Giovanni, technically), Gregory, John, Robin… [Al Murray the Pub Landlord] Beautiful British names! [/AMtPL] 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2660 "2010-07-13T15:40:28Z")
People call Giovanni Gio, following his time in Barcelona; never have I heard anyone refer to him as Joey. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677.md?page=132) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677.md?page=134)