# 2010 FIFA World Cup South Africa **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 10, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677 "2010-06-10T17:32:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 134
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2661 "2010-07-13T16:01:01Z")
> [@Coldfire](#): > > I’ll give you that one. The English (or other foreign) first name phenomenon was quite popular in The Netherlands in the late 1970’s and 1980’s, predominantly in the (for lack of a better word) lower socio-economic rungs. > > Hence our whole line-up of Nigel, Wesley, Joey (well Giovanni, technically), Gregory, John, Robin… > > [Al Murray the Pub Landlord] Beautiful British names! [/AMtPL] 🙂 Sweden has a similar thing going on with Tommy, Ronny and whatnot. Bizarre, I tells you. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2662 "2010-07-13T17:08:25Z")
Good read: [**Dutch try to spin Webb of deceit**](http://blogs.dailyrecord.co.uk/stuartdougal/2010/07/dutch-try-to-spin-webb-of-deceit.html) ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2663 "2010-07-13T17:42:19Z")
> [@Svejk\_1](#): > > People call Giovanni Gio, following his time in Barcelona; never have I heard anyone refer to him as Joey. Well it stems from that. His family sort of bastardised Gio to Joe. But yeah - Gio’s his nickname stemming from his Spanish years. RedFury, interesting read indeed, if a tad much. One thing I can’t help but notice is all the negative English attention on the Dutch, coinicidentally after their own squad were one of the disappointments of the tournament. In addition, some of these pundits really need to re-watch the Dutch matches in the 74 and 78 world cup, if they’re so convinced the 2010 Orange squad are such thugs. What’s romantically remembered as total football, was in practice plenty violent as well. And you don’t have to go back that far. How did Italy win the 2006 cup - by stellar football alone? Yeah, the Dutch played hard. And they certainly deserved to be a man down after De Jong’s karate moment. But it’s what any other team would have done, having noticed after 5 minutes of play they couldn’t hack it on a technical level against Spain. Should they just have let Spain run all over them? I guess for some the answer’s yes. I find that a bit naive, reminiscent of all the shit Suarez caught for that handball against Ghana. A straight red, deservedly, and any other player in the WORLD would have done the same in his position. There’s too much at stake in a world cup final to rely on playing nice when you notice you’re outclassed. I would have preferred a prettier game too, but it wasn’t to be this time. What was the last world cup final that was truly a joy to watch? ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2664 "2010-07-13T17:54:09Z")
I don’t blame the Dutch for being physical. But I’m still glad they lost. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2665 "2010-07-13T18:13:35Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > A dive doesn’t stop it being a foul. You don’t have to pull a man down for it to be a foul. I don’t think it was a foul. I think it was a total dive. He did have his arm on his shoulder, but there was no rotation in the Spanish players shoulders. That to me indicates no pull. As you not, soccer is a physical game and the contact was there just isn’t close to a foul. If the Spaniard didn’t dive there would be no argument. > [@amanset](#): > > I honestly don’t think so. I can’t find a decent YouTube video of it, but it appeared to me then and does from what I can see now that the original contact was much, much more shoulder to shoulder than Heitinga (who was clearly well behind the man) and as for sweeping his legs - are you really suggesting he did that on purpose? The guy was running as fast as he could and went arse over tit. > . Yes, its clear that his leg sweep was intentional. Robben was certainly clear past him as well. The grab and leg sweep gave the keeper an extra moment to close in on Robben, and made the attempt much more difficult. I have no problem with the ref playing an advantage, but a card has to come out there. ![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Oma9jAyIuSA/maxresdefault.jpg)https://www.youtube.com/embed/Oma9jAyIuSA?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2666 "2010-07-13T19:23:23Z")
> [@Coldfire](#): > > RedFury, interesting read indeed, if a tad much. One thing I can’t help but notice is all the negative English attention on the Dutch, coinicidentally after their own squad were one of the disappointments of the tournament. It was actually an article in a Scottish paper by a Scottish writer :p. But there certainly has been negative coverage of the Dutch team in the English press too. I don’t quite see what the performance of the English team has to do with it - you’re perhaps suggesting that they’re trying to deflect attention from England being crap? No, we’ve spent the last four weeks talking about little else. Bridling at the criticism of the English referee? Well, maybe a bit. But the main reason is that the Dutch national team has been revered here since the 70s for its stylish football, so we’re disappointed to see them playing like that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2667 "2010-07-13T19:55:32Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > It was actually an article in a Scottish paper by a Scottish writer :p. He’s actually one of the top referees in Scotland. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2668 "2010-07-13T20:46:49Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I don’t think it was a foul. I think it was a total dive. He did have his arm on his shoulder, but there was no rotation in the Spanish players shoulders. That to me indicates no pull. He certainly doesn’t get away from Heitinga as you’d expect if he weren’t being held. Heitinga deliberately reaches out for the shoulder, and his hands come off only when he’s sure the ball is gone; it looks pretty calculating to me. Iniesta goes to ground, sure, but it’s a foul nonetheless, and a deliberate one. > [@](#): > > Yes, its clear that his leg sweep was intentional. Robben was certainly clear past him as well. The grab and leg sweep gave the keeper an extra moment to close in on Robben, and made the attempt much more difficult. I have no problem with the ref playing an advantage, but a card has to come out there. Both look like fouls; in both cases the fouled player could’ve stood up, and Robben did (IMO because he wants to reach the area before going over - check out how he tries to sell a trip by the goalie once he knows the ball is gone). Why is one given, and not the other? To be honest I think it’s got more to do with Webb’s positioning than anything else - Puyol and Robben are chasing a swift through ball, leaving Webb only just past the half-way line, whereas he’s pretty well placed for the Heitinga foul. I’m not a big fan of Howard Webb, who as far as I can tell has gained an inflated reputation largely by being bald and having emphatic body-language, but these are both tough calls. And, like the Daily Record article says, while he didn’t get everything right, that was an absolute bastard of a match to referee. And frankly, for all the times Robben has dived his way to ill-gotten gains, the little scrote deserves to miss out on the call when it matters most. Not pleased to see Iniesta wave the imaginary card, though; I really wish they’d go zero-tolerance on that. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2669 "2010-07-13T21:20:52Z")
> [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > He certainly doesn’t get away from Heitinga as you’d expect if he weren’t being held. Heitinga deliberately reaches out for the shoulder, and his hands come off only when he’s sure the ball is gone; it looks pretty calculating to me. Iniesta goes to ground, sure, but it’s a foul nonetheless, and a deliberate one. I guess we will just have to disagree. Iniesta looks to me like he was passed Heitinga and then went down when he realized he wasn’t going to get to the ball first. IMHO it was a calculated decision to go down in hopes of a foul. FIFA took down the good youtube video, but I just don’t see any real impediment in Iniesta’s body language. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2670 "2010-07-13T23:28:31Z")
> [@](#): > > But while there is still this great romantic notion of Holland being the exponents of Total Football, they hold the dubious honour of being the dirtiest country at four of the last six World Cups. Don’t you wonder about the other two? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2671 "2010-07-14T00:01:45Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > It was actually an article in a Scottish paper by a Scottish writer :p. But there certainly has been negative coverage of the Dutch team in the English press too… > > \ > > …But the main reason is that the Dutch national team has been revered here since the 70s for its stylish football, so we’re disappointed to see them playing like that. Pretty much my take on it as well. Besides Spain – and being openly biased towards European sides not called The Azzurri – we (collective Spaniards) was/am a fan of Dutch football. And Og knows we’ve had plenty of their players in La Liga to prove as much – for instance, Oranje stars Robben and Sneijder, shamefully dropped by Florentino from the Madrid squad this past summer. In fact, many would rightly say that Cruyff’s influence in Barça’s football, both as a player, coach and resident guru, has much to do with our current style – and I’d venture to say they have a good argument to make. After all, Barça is not just the core of our NT, but the most successful footballing style in the world over the past two/three years – about the time our NT has been dominant. Hardly a coincidence methinks. So having said that, I was highly disappointed by the way the Dutch chose to play; heck, asshole anti-footy Mourinho should be proud. No doubt it’ll be a pleasure to have him coaching Madrid :rolleyes: Yeah, sure, a romantic I might be, but I figured they’d come at us and vice versa – let the best team win and all that. But that was simply crap and it annoys me to no end to hear the continuing whining by _some_ of the Dutch players and fans. Lastly, when was the last “good Final”? Surely this past Sunday as football won at the end of the day. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2672 "2010-07-14T00:10:41Z")
Well, you WOULD say that, wouldn’t you? And I don’t blame you. 🙂 But really. A final match that was a joy to watch for the non-partisan observer? When did that ever happen? The 1978 final sure was thrilling, but as we’ve retroactively found out, it was bought. Ever since then, you tell me. Too much at stake. More and more so in this day and age with the world cup becoming a advertising platform for the next EUR 100 million transfer. Winning is everything, and they’ll do anything to get there. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2673 "2010-07-14T01:50:16Z")
> [@carm](#): > > What I said is he hit _across_ the ball with his right. That curls it clockwise, so it curls to the right. When crossing fromthe byline you wrap your foot around the ball, hitting with your instep and curling it anti-clockwise, so that it curls to the left, rather than curling out of play, it swerves away from the keeper and towards the strikers. Yes, I misunderstood you. Still, I never made the claim that he tried to cross with the outside of his foot, so I don’t really know how that matters. I’m well aware how to cross the ball and how to bend it. > [@](#): > > I’d imagine I’ve played at a much higher level than you. I coach kids as well. Oh boy. ---
**Author:** ![Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8c91f0/32.png) [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bam_Boo_Gut)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2674 "2010-07-14T02:47:05Z")
> [@Coldfire](#): > > I’ll give you that one. The English (or other foreign) first name phenomenon was quite popular in The Netherlands in the late 1970’s and 1980’s, predominantly in the (for lack of a better word) lower socio-economic rungs. > > Hence our whole line-up of Nigel, Wesley, Joey (well Giovanni, technically), Gregory, John, Robin… > > [Al Murray the Pub Landlord] Beautiful British names! [/AMtPL] 🙂 When working in Amsterdam in the 80’s - one of our managers wore a jacket with an emblem on it and what I have to describe as a neckerchief - looked like someone who wanted to be in the yacht club - my Dutch friend said he was part of a subset of Dutch called Engels-something-or-the-other, some sort of English style imitators - I wonder if he’s Nigels dad. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2675 "2010-07-14T03:15:44Z")
> [@Coldfire](#): > > Well, you WOULD say that, wouldn’t you? And I don’t blame you. 🙂 Predictable but true non the less, no? > [@](#): > > _But really. A final match that was a joy to watch for the non-partisan observer? When did that ever happen? The 1978 final sure was thrilling, but as we’ve retroactively found out, it was bought. Ever since then, you tell me._ In all honesty, France/Brazil '98. And yes, I agree '78 was a sham. > [@](#): > > _Too much at stake. More and more so in this day and age with the world cup becoming a advertising platform for the next EUR 100 million transfer. Winning is everything, and they’ll do anything to get there._ I’m afraid I can’t disagree with you on this either. Would that I could. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2676 "2010-07-14T05:46:41Z")
> [@Coldfire](#): > > The 1978 final sure was thrilling, but as we’ve retroactively found out, it was bought. Ever since then, you tell me. > [@RedFury](#): > > And yes, I agree '78 was a sham. As I am not old enough to remember 1978, what was “bought” here? I knew that 6-0 win over Peru was pretty outrageous and prompted the current policy of simultaneous games, but I never heard anything about the final. Wiki mentions Argentina [delaying the start of the game](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_FIFA_World_Cup_Final), but is that what you are referring to? That seems pretty tame. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2677 "2010-07-14T08:32:15Z")
I’ll be damned if I can find anything about it online, for some reason. But a few years ago, there was a very thorough documentary on Dutch television about the 1978 world cup. Obviously, the Videla dictatorship influenced a lot of factors surrounding this tournament, the Argentina-Peru match being the most blatant. But in the documentary, a pretty strong case was made that there had been direct interference with the match officials of the final. IIRC, it was even alledged that the Italian referee who led the match admitted as much on his death bed. I’ll come back when I find more info about it. It was thoroughly interesting stuff. Of course, in light of the atrocities of the Videla regime, fixing a world cup is small potatoes… ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2678 "2010-07-14T08:34:57Z")
Well, some of the above can be stricken already. The ref is still alive. 😃 > **[Sergio Gonella](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergio_Gonella)** > > Sergio Gonella (Italian pronunciation: \[ˈsɛrdʒo ɡoˈnɛlla\]; 23 May 1933 – 19 June 2018) was an Italian bank manager and association football referee. > He was the first ever Italian appointed to referee the final of the FIFA World Cup which occurred when he took charge of the 1978 final between hosts Argentina and the Netherlands. > He is one of only two persons (the other being the Swiss Gottfried Dienst) to have refereed the finals of both the UEFA European Championship and the FIFA World Cup. Gon... It’s been a few years since I saw it, and I don’t remember all the details clearly. Wish I could find it. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2679 "2010-07-14T09:07:21Z")
This article gives an interesting play-by-play of the 1978 final: [http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/goldkeep/Holland78/Argntna.htm](http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/goldkeep/Holland78/Argntna.htm) It’s written by an Englishman, if that helps. 🙂 Besides describing how brutal the match was (on both sides), it clearly paints a picture of an intimidated ref afraid to blow the wistle against the white and blues in the witch’s cauldron the _Monumental_ must have been that day. Also from memory, based on that documentary I keep referring to, the organisation of the cup had been messing with the Dutch team by putting them in another hotel for no apparent reason in the days leading up to the final, forcing them to travel something like 2 hours each way to their training facilities. All in all no rock solid case, but a lot of incidents indicating a climate was devised to deliberately destabilise the Dutch team. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/2680 "2010-07-14T10:38:08Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I don’t think it was a foul. I think it was a total dive. He did have his arm on his shoulder, but there was no rotation in the Spanish players shoulders. That to me indicates no pull. As you not, soccer is a physical game and the contact was there just isn’t close to a foul. If the Spaniard didn’t dive there would be no argument. Yet it is routinely given by referees. It is the same with jumping against the keeper, you just can’t seem to do it these days without giving away a foul. > [@treis](#): > > Yes, its clear that his leg sweep was intentional. Robben was certainly clear past him as well. The grab and leg sweep gave the keeper an extra moment to close in on Robben, and made the attempt much more difficult. I have no problem with the ref playing an advantage, but a card has to come out there. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oma9jAyIuSA](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oma9jAyIuSA) I disagree. Look how much further the momentum moves his body after the sweep. He was clearly tumbling extremely quickly and had no real control over where his body went. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677.md?page=133) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677.md?page=135)