# 2010 FIFA World Cup South Africa **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 10, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677 "2010-06-10T17:32:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 65
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/1281 "2010-06-23T17:55:07Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > They’re telling you to stop whinging because borderline cases like that go against you all the time. That was a really close call, and I think the US player was actually fractionally offside, but I accept that it was close enough that the linesman should have given the benefit of the doubt to the attacking side. But the point that I hope my compatriots were making is that razor-thin offside calls are no basis for cries of “injustice!” They happen all the time. Deal with it. Yeah, I wasn’t really so up in arms about this call. Although I think he was clearly onside with the benefit of replay, depending on the linesman’s positioning and angle of view on the play, it was close enough that I could see an honestly mistaken offside call. (I myself thought there was a chance he was offside as I watched the play unfold live.) That said, both ESPN commentators seemed to view this as a clear black-and-white blown call, so what do I know? What pissed me off was the US’s inability to find the back of the net. If the US didn’t go through, it wasn’t for lack of opportunities. Even on the eventual goal, I was waiting for that shot to be completely muffed by the Americans. Thankfully, it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/1282 "2010-06-23T18:03:15Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Yeah, I wasn’t really so up in arms about this call. Although I think he was clearly onside with the benefit of replay, depending on the linesman’s positioning and angle of view on the play, it was close enough that I could see an honestly mistaken offside call. (I myself thought there was a chance he was offside as I watched the play unfold live.) That said, both ESPN commentators seemed to view this as a clear black-and-white blown call, so what do I know? I think, for me, the most relevant point made by the commentators was not just that the guy was onside, but that the officials should, in very close sitautions like that, give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team. Like you, when i first saw it on full-speed live action, i wasn’t sure whether or not he was onside. But in a case like that, where i can’t make a definitive call of offside, the flag should stay down, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/1283 "2010-06-23T18:07:26Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > You really need to stop whining now, because you’re sounding like a petulant kid. Although i guess you _are_ a Steelers fan, so it shouldn’t be too surprising. > > Yes, the offside call shouldn’t have been, but that’s just how it is sometimes. The United States deservedly made it through, and are at the top of the group. Not only that, but plenty of people from all over the world, me included, were happy to see them make it out of the first round. > > But every American who keeps bleating like a sheep and implying that the bad decisions constituted some sort of conspiracy to keep the US out of the next round is going to dry up the foreign support pretty damn quickly. Just put it behind you and move on, ferchissakes. I’ll bet that’s what the players themselves are doing, much to their credit. Blah blah blah. I’m merely purging it from my system. Indulge me. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/1284 "2010-06-23T18:09:34Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I think, for me, the most relevant point made by the commentators was not just that the guy was onside, but that the officials should, in very close sitautions like that, give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team. > > Like you, when i first saw it on full-speed live action, i wasn’t sure whether or not he was onside. But in a case like that, where i can’t make a definitive call of offside, the flag should stay down, IMO. I agree with you – I just didn’t find this the anywhere near as egregious a call as the one against Slovenia. This one is at least I could see being a very honest judgment call that the official just got a little bit off. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/1285 "2010-06-23T18:16:13Z")
FWIW, I’ve now seen a replay from an overhead angle and agree that it looks to me like the US player’s left leg was maybe offside, but not the rest of him. I don’t think that counts, so I now think that the goal should have stood. But it’s nowhere near as bad as that outrageous disallowed goal against Slovenia. All teams have had valid goals disallowed for offside, it’s just the nature of the offside rule. From time to time people propose alternatives to the offside rule, but they all have their flaws. Hard cases make bad law, as they say - that is, don’t rush to change the laws just because of some unfortunate extreme cases. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/1286 "2010-06-23T18:17:23Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > They’re telling you to stop whinging because borderline cases like that go against you all the time. That was a really close call, and I think the US player was actually fractionally offside, but I accept that it was close enough that the linesman should have given the benefit of the doubt to the attacking side. But the point that I hope my compatriots were making is that razor-thin offside calls are no basis for cries of “injustice!” They happen all the time. Deal with it. Believe me, if anyone, _anyone’s_ side was sent home because of a goal disallowed on a call that was close enough to not be proven to be right, the would not simply say “happens all the time, oh well, we’ll get 'em in '14” And just because some people are crying conspiracy, doesn’t mean bitching about refs must = crying conspiracy. Come on. A small % of vocal people always think everything is a conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/1287 "2010-06-23T18:17:45Z")
Snerk-worthy headline I saw today: **U.S.A defeats FIFA 1-0** ---
**Author:** ![JoeH2O](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@JoeH2O](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoeH2O)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/1288 "2010-06-23T18:18:42Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Apparently iPlayer was serving 800,000 streams of the England game, on top of its usual load. Not surprising since the game was on during the normal working day - I bet there were thousands of people watching it from work with an excel spreadsheet at the ready to cover it up if the boss came wandering in. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/1289 "2010-06-23T18:22:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > …Wait, what? The US was comprehensively outplayed by England. I watched the game and felt England played slightly better than the US in that first game. The stats from the game also favor England, but not by much. However, the US offense just seemed crisper and cleaner than England’s, although England’s defense was better (with the exception of the keeper). But I think the US was better when you analyze all 3 games played. Far better. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/1290 "2010-06-23T18:22:47Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > They’re telling you to stop whinging because borderline cases like that go against you all the time. That was a really close call, and I think the US player was actually fractionally offside, but I accept that it was close enough that the linesman should have given the benefit of the doubt to the attacking side. But the point that I hope my compatriots were making is that razor-thin offside calls are no basis for cries of “injustice!” They happen all the time. Deal with it. You make an excellent case for instant replay. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/1291 "2010-06-23T18:31:19Z")
A ref very bad, terrible, mistake is when the ref makes a wrong call against some other team. A ref “distraction” or “error” is when the ref makes a wrong call that favours your team. A crime against humanity is [del]what Codesal did in 1990…[/del] errr, when the ref makes a wrong call against your team. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/1292 "2010-06-23T18:38:32Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > Believe me, if anyone, _anyone’s_ side was sent home because of a goal disallowed on a call that was close enough to not be proven to be right, the would not simply say “happens all the time, oh well, we’ll get 'em in '14” No, I know – it happened to my team in the 1998 World Cup, after all, at a later stage than this, when Sol Campbell’s goal was disallowed for… well for something or other. Some foul that the referee saw, apparently. We bitched about it mightily for a few days, then moved on. In comparison, debatable offside decisions like the one that went against the US today are very small potatoes. Even if it had knocked you out, it was debatable, not obviously wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/1293 "2010-06-23T18:43:42Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > So I have wandered over to some of the English sites to see the comments and whay I find amusing is how they tell us 'Yanks" to stop whinging about disallowed goals etc., you know because we don’t really understand the game. > > Because of course other countries (especially England) never ever complain about a percieved injustice. Comical. It gets very tedious when any set of myoptic fans bangs on and on about bad decisions. A good example from the last world cup was a disallowed goal that knocked England out. A tabloid newspaper had the great idea of printing the Swiss ref’s address, leading to the ref receiving death threats from England fans. Disgusting. It wasn’t even that bad a decision, and it ignores the fact that England simply didn’t play well enough to deserve a win. On the disallowed goal in the USA game, you can’t expect such marginal decisions to always go your team’s way. If the USA had been knocked out today, the main reason would have been the chances you missed, not the offside flag. > [@mhendo](#): > > I think, for me, the most relevant point made by the commentators was not just that the guy was onside, but that the officials should, in very close sitautions like that, give the benefit of the doubt to the attacking team. > > Like you, when i first saw it on full-speed live action, i wasn’t sure whether or not he was onside. But in a case like that, where i can’t make a definitive call of offside, the flag should stay down, IMO. How would that help? That would just lead to more goals being given when the attacker gained an unfair advantage. The linesman has to use his best judgement. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/1294 "2010-06-23T18:45:06Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > No, I know – it happened to my team in the 1998 World Cup, after all, at a later stage than this, when Sol Campbell’s goal was disallowed for… well for something or other. Some foul that the referee saw, apparently. We bitched about it mightily for a few days, then moved on. In comparison, debatable offside decisions like the one that went against the US today are very small potatoes. Even if it had knocked you out, it was debatable, not obviously wrong. That was the 2004 European Cup and the referee was [Urs Meier](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Meier): > [@](#): > > Portugal vs England > In the Euro 2004 quarter-final between England and Portugal at Lisbon, with the score at 1-1, he disallowed a goal by Sol Campbell in the 89th minute due to a foul by John Terry on the Portuguese goalkeeper Ricardo Pereira.[2] The match ended in a draw, and Portugal proceeded to the next stage following a penalty shootout and reached the final (where they lost to Greece).[3] > > UEFA backed Meier,[4] but English fans and media contested the accuracy of his decision — condemning Meier. English tabloids dubbed him “Urs hole”, “idiot ref”, “Swiss banker” and “wanker”.[5] > > After Meier’s personal details were published by British tabloid newspapers, Meier received more than 16,000 abusive e-mails, and death threats. Reporters of The Sun even travelled to Switzerland and placed an oversized English flag on a field near his home[citation needed]. As a result, he was placed under police protection[citation needed]. At the airport Meier was escorted from the plane, had to go into hiding for seven days and could not even meet his children for four days. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/1295 "2010-06-23T18:48:00Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > … although England’s defense was better (with the exception of the keeper). God bless you, Robert Green. 😉 If you think about it, that guy won the group for the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/1296 "2010-06-23T18:49:25Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > Believe me, if anyone, _anyone’s_ side was sent home because of a goal disallowed on a call that was close enough to not be proven to be right, the would not simply say “happens all the time, oh well, we’ll get 'em in '14” > > And just because some people are crying conspiracy, doesn’t mean bitching about refs must = crying conspiracy. Come on. A small % of vocal people always think everything is a conspiracy. Right, but that’s precisely my point. If you want to complain about bad decisions, fine. If you want to talk about ways to prevent them having such an impact in the future (instant replay, whatever), fine. No-one likes seeing the wrong team win on a bad call. I don’t even like seeing my own team win on a bad call, in any sport, because you sort of feel like the victory wasn’t properly earned. But all this whining and implying (and sometimes outright saying) that everyone hates America and are just trying to eliminate the US team from the World Cup is pretty stupid and petulant. Also, while it doesn’t change the fact that they were bad calls, in the end the US didn’t even end up suffering for the bad calls. They won their division, which is the absolute best possible situation to be in after the Group round. If they had been eliminated by bad calls, some more moaning might be understandable, but they weren’t, so people need to get over it already. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/1297 "2010-06-23T18:50:24Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Right, but that’s precisely my point. > > If you want to complain about bad decisions, fine. If you want to talk about ways to prevent them having such an impact in the future (instant replay, whatever), fine. No-one likes seeing the wrong team win on a bad call. I don’t even like seeing my own team win on a bad call, in any sport, because you sort of feel like the victory wasn’t properly earned. > > But all this whining and implying (and sometimes outright saying) that everyone hates America and are just trying to eliminate the US team from the World Cup is pretty stupid and petulant. Also, while it doesn’t change the fact that they were bad calls, in the end the US didn’t even end up suffering for the bad calls. They won their division, which is the absolute best possible situation to be in after the Group round. If they had been eliminated by bad calls, some more moaning might be understandable, but they weren’t, so people need to get over it already. We ARE over it. What makes you think otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/1298 "2010-06-23T19:03:20Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > That was the 2004 European Cup and the referee was [Urs Meier](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Meier): Sol Campbell also had a disallowed goal in the '98 World Cup. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/1299 "2010-06-23T19:06:20Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > We ARE over it. What makes you think otherwise? The continued whining, in this very thread. Complaints like “Looking back, I’m surprised the ref didn’t call the goal back for offsides. There was a US player in the goal, after all” and “There was no offsides on the early (non) goal, so it wouldn’t have been that much of a stretch to make shit up on that one too.” That’s the sort of attitude i was criticizing. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677/1300 "2010-06-23T19:11:18Z")
It’s called “joking”. You could look it up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677.md?page=64) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2010-fifa-world-cup-south-africa/542677.md?page=66)