# 2011 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame nominees **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 29, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486 "2010-09-29T16:41:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/181 "2010-10-01T06:18:10Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > There is nothing in what I said that was remotely disruptive or hijacking. I exressed opinions about who should go in _just like everybody else did_. I said Kiss should get in. Other people are saying “Kiss sucks.” How is that any less objectionable than me saying that I think Rush should get in before somebody I never heard of? Give me a break. I never even said she shouldn’t go in at all (I don’t know), just that she shouldn’t go in before Rush. > > Because, and this I think is an important point, the people who say Kiss sucks say that _because they have heard Kiss_ and decided they did not like Kiss. They have an _informed_ opinion about Kiss. You have an _uninformed_ opinion about Laura Nyro because you have not heard her. See the difference? > > You’re ranking things you have never heard. That is pretty definitively ignorant. I have not expressed a single opinion about Laura Nyro. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/182 "2010-10-01T07:19:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Roll your eyes all you want, but that was the culture of the subgenre I was part of in the 80’s and 90’s. The kind of people I jammed with listened to none of that stuff on your list. Are you drunk? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/183 "2010-10-01T07:22:20Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t dismiss Tom Waits, but he isn’t rock. You’re right. He isn’t part of the 80’s 90’s metal subgenre. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/184 "2010-10-01T07:24:48Z")
(Once you learn the language, communication is much simpler.) ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/185 "2010-10-01T07:29:59Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I have not expressed a single opinion about Laura Nyro. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > she shouldn’t go in before Rush The fact that Dio clearly does not comprehend what an opinion actually _ **is** _ goes a long way to explaining why he believes his are the gospel. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/186 "2010-10-01T07:36:23Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > she shouldn’t go in before Rush > > The fact that Dio clearly does not comprehend what an opinion actually _ **is** _ goes a long way to explaining why he believes his are the gospel. He’ll probably say its a fact, not an opinion…:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/187 "2010-10-01T08:04:04Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > I don’t dismiss Tom Waits, but he isn’t rock. > > You’re right. He isn’t part of the 80’s 90’s metal subgenre. Although Waits has collaborated with Primus and their frontman, [Les Claypool](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Claypool), on several songs. Then again, Primus really isn’t part of the 80s 90s metal subgenre either. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/188 "2010-10-01T11:10:38Z")
This thread is a PERFECT example of why this “Dio Show” is bullshit foisted on everyone else by a subgroup of dopers looking to pick/prolong an ongoing fight. Majority opinion here appears to be that everything is rock and roll, and that not fully appreciating Laura Nyro is troglodytic. In fact, it’s perfectly acceptable to be insistent and inflexible on the topic. It’s okay to make statements that the guitar solo in Hot Stuff is a rock guitar solo. If I’m unimpressed that Nyro wrote Eli’s Coming, I need to be educated. It’s not okay to insist that Rock and Roll is a specific and defined category, and if one does so, it’s fine to pounce on them and call them names. Jesus, if you don’t like his opinion, understand that it’s his opinion and go about your day. You haven’t seen me calling Gaffa or Guin names, regardless of the foolishness of their opinions. By the way, on the rock music station here in Pittsburgh, the DJs had a discussion about these nominations. They pretty much said what I’ve been saying and to some extent what Diogenes has been saying. I think part of the problem is that many people here don’t actually listen to rock and roll. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/189 "2010-10-01T11:30:29Z")
A Wikipedia link to the ideological approach to music known as [Rockism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockism). This thread is hilarious. Defining what Rock is and how it can/should overlap with Pop Music, in the context of judging Hall of Fame selections, is interesting until people take it seriously - then it becomes silly, pointless and more about the combatants than the topic. Nyro was influential to the whole singer-songwriter vein which emerged in the early 70’s and persists to this day. Not knowing who she is does not change that. Whether you think she is Rock or not is a whole different issue. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/190 "2010-10-01T11:43:06Z")
I’m not arguing that “at one time in history, they “got music right”, and that all subsequent innovations have compromised this purity.” I’m arguing that rock and roll is a meaningful distinction that would exclude Donna Summer, Pat Boone, Neil Diamond and Chic. I just looked through the list of acts in the hall. I did not see Conway Twitty, Loretta Lynn, Dolly Parton, Garth Brooks or Shania Twain. Given all of the other acts that people here in this thread see as appropriate for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, why are acts like that not in? ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/191 "2010-10-01T12:03:28Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I’m not arguing that “at one time in history, they “got music right”, and that all subsequent innovations have compromised this purity.” I’m arguing that rock and roll is a meaningful distinction that would exclude Donna Summer, Pat Boone, \*\*Neil Diamond \*\*and Chic. Have you heard Neil’s early stuff? Try Hot August Night. Definitely rock and roll (or if not, what is it?). I agree as a performer he tends to adult contemporary, but as a writer he definitely has a little rock and roll in him. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/192 "2010-10-01T12:06:30Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I just looked through the list of acts in the hall. I did not see Conway Twitty, Loretta Lynn, Dolly Parton, Garth Brooks or Shania Twain. Given all of the other acts that people here in this thread see as appropriate for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, why are acts like that not in? No because Country music has it’s own HOF. The first three names on your list are already in. Brooks is only a matter of time (may not be eligible yet - I didn’t read the rules). Twain’s iffy, but I wouldn’t be surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/193 "2010-10-01T12:25:00Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > > > I just looked through the list of acts in the hall. I did not see Conway Twitty, Loretta Lynn, Dolly Parton, Garth Brooks or Shania Twain. Given all of the other acts that people here in this thread see as appropriate for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, why are acts like that not in? > > No because Country music has it’s own HOF. The first three names on your list are already in. Brooks is only a matter of time (may not be eligible yet - I didn’t read the rules). Twain’s iffy, but I wouldn’t be surprised. Having perused the selections on Amazon from the Neil Diamond album you mentioned, those tracks are very much rock and roll tracks. On the other hand, they are not tracks that really typify what he’s known for. I’m thinking more of Sweet Caroline and America and that sort of thing. But I largely agree with your post on that subject. This post I don’t find very convincing, since you are essentially saying that since there is a Hall of Fame to reify the category of Country music, those acts are different that all the other ones we are talking about. If that’s the case, the absence of a Disco Hall of Fame (as far as I know) does not mean that Donna Summer becomes representative of Rock and Roll. Why shouldn’t she go into the Country Music Hall of Fame, if we are going to blur the distinctions between genres so very much? ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/194 "2010-10-01T12:57:29Z")
Just want to point out… every Rush song I have ever heard (admittedly not very many) has had KEYBOARDS. In fact, Geddy Lee is fairly proficient on 'em. Again this thread is why HOFs exist. We all forget it exists, until this time of year when we argue about who should or should not be in. I think a fairly objective (yeah, right) criteria would be an act that has had significant critical or popular acclaim, or those acts that have influenced said acts. I can’t stand Tom Waits, but I know enough that many artists have been influenced by him. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/195 "2010-10-01T12:59:21Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > I have not expressed a single opinion about Laura Nyro. > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > she shouldn’t go in before Rush > > The fact that Dio clearly does not comprehend what an opinion actually _ **is** _ goes a long way to explaining why he believes his are the gospel. That’s not an opinion about her, it’s an opinion about Rush. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/196 "2010-10-01T13:10:48Z")
> [@Hippy\_Hollow](#): > > Just want to point out… every Rush song I have ever heard (admittedly not very many) has had KEYBOARDS. In fact, Geddy Lee is fairly proficient on 'em. Yes, but they’d be much better without them, don’t you see? _ **Death to false metal!** _ ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/197 "2010-10-01T13:14:18Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > There is nothing in what I said that was remotely disruptive or hijacking. I exressed opinions about who should go in _just like everybody else did_. I said Kiss should get in. Other people are saying “Kiss sucks.” How is that any less objectionable than me saying that I think Rush should get in before somebody I never heard of? Give me a break. I never even said she shouldn’t go in at all (I don’t know), just that she shouldn’t go in before Rush. > > Because, and this I think is an important point, the people who say Kiss sucks say that _because they have heard Kiss_ and decided they did not like Kiss. They have an _informed_ opinion about Kiss. You have an _uninformed_ opinion about Laura Nyro because you have not heard her. See the difference? > > You’re ranking things you have never heard. That is pretty definitively ignorant. I’m the one who said that Kiss sucked. Yes, I heard their stuff. But I mostly remember them from the [unmade-up photos](http://www.dogmaticblog.com/2009/04/26/when-kiss-was-cool-the-creem-magazine-unmasking-1974/) that appeared in _Creem_–when their “real” faces were top secret. I believe the captions included “for your retching pleasure.” Some people get stuck on one genre played when they “came of age” & never progress. Hey, I’m a Boomer–but I’ve liked lots of later bands. And I’m always glad to learn about people I’ve missed. Rock can be silly. Kiss in the HOF wouldn’t bother me–after Alice Cooper gets in. I preferred The Tubes, but they were obscure. And the New York Dolls carried on the tradition (teetering on their high heels). However, the exclusion of most non-white musicians is worse than silly. Why doesn’t somebody open a Metal Hall of Fame for the purists? But there are [subgenres](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_subgenres) there, too. And some of them include keyboards! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/198 "2010-10-01T13:19:46Z")
Most of Rush’s classic period did not include keyboards. That was a later development in the band, when they abandoned rock and went techno. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/199 "2010-10-01T13:29:41Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Most of Rush’s classic period did not include keyboards. That was a later development in the band, when they abandoned rock and went techno. Now this is wrong. Tom Sawyer is not my favorite Rush tune (since it is so overplayed relative to their other great songs) but it does typify Rush, and does feature keyboards. I’d also strongly argue that they could never be categorized as techno, but there were albums that did start to incorporate a lot more synthesizer than their historical stuff. Their recent stuff is much more a return to the hard rocking power trio stuff. I’d also disagree with Geddy being described as proficient on keyboards. Rush keyboard elements are typically very, very simple. Often single notes or simple chords. They always wanted to make sure that they could reproduce on stage whatever they put into a studio track, so nothing takes Geddy away from the bass for very long. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/200 "2010-10-01T13:41:02Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Majority opinion here appears to be that everything is rock and roll, and that not fully appreciating Laura Nyro is troglodytic… It’s a strawman to claim people are arguing “everything is rock & roll.” The objection isn’t to folks denigrating other people’s favorites; the objection is to interlocutors who presume the power of persuasion or authority to exclude subgenres from the rock & roll ‘club’ based on their own subjective preferences. Sorry, that isn’t a committee decision and it isn’t your call either. Country music and rock & roll are distinct genres as “decided” by organic separation imposed by tradition or structural norms of composition. But outlaw, western swing, zydeco and hillbilly are all subgenres that can fit into both broader categories as “decided” by the context of each recording or performance. This lack of overly restrictive criteria is what keeps genres from becoming formulaic and stale. Country music was in serious danger of succombing to a restrictive mindset, but has been resurgent because of artists kicking against that goad, and fans following right along with them. By the way, what gets posters in trouble in opinion threads is the same thing that always starts fights in bar discussions, radio call in shows and message boards like this one: some guys don’t _opine_, they _pronounce_ on obnoxiously arbitrary grounds and then defend those pronouncements as the embossed word of authority, becoming more and more intractable as people tear down their edifice of bullshit. It aint the username that makes people react as if Dio’s being a douchebag, it’s the fact that he’s being a douchebag. (Been guilty of douchebaggery myself, and I’ve tried pretty hard to recognize when I’m doing it.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486.md?page=11)