# 2011 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame nominees **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 29, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486 "2010-09-29T16:41:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/201 "2010-10-01T13:54:44Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > Most of Rush’s classic period did not include keyboards. That was a later development in the band, when they abandoned rock and went techno. > > Now this is wrong. Tom Sawyer is not my favorite Rush tune (since it is so overplayed relative to their other great songs) but it does typify Rush, and does feature keyboards. I’d also strongly argue that they could never be categorized as techno, but there were albums that did start to incorporate a lot more synthesizer than their historical stuff. Their recent stuff is much more a return to the hard rocking power trio stuff. > > I’d also disagree with Geddy being described as proficient on keyboards. Rush keyboard elements are typically very, very simple. Often single notes or simple chords. They always wanted to make sure that they could reproduce on stage whatever they put into a studio track, so nothing takes Geddy away from the bass for very long. Yep. Tom Sawyer, the Rush song that everyone has heard, has quite prominent synths. I know because the metalheads on the bus were always trying to convince me of their awesomeness with this song. As well as AC/DC’s Back in Black (no keyboards there). I’ve seen Geddy Lee canoodling on keys in many a Rush video, so I assumed that he knew what he was doing. I can empathize with the “synths suck” sentiment - there was a soullessness to many of the 80s synth pop bands (while some is actually quite good). But all of my favorite bands from that time - Joy Division/New Order, The Police, U2, The Smiths - featured synths in their music at some point. To arbitrarily say that one instrument automatically wussifies a song just proves that some musicians are so incredibly talented that they know how to use new technology to rawk. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/202 "2010-10-01T14:04:05Z")
> [@Hippy\_Hollow](#): > > To arbitrarily say that one instrument automatically wussifies a song just proves that some musicians are so incredibly talented that they know how to use new technology to rawk. I agree.Baba O’Riley and Won’t Get Fooled Again don’t seem wussified, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/203 "2010-10-01T14:29:00Z")
The synths on “Tom Sawyer” were an anomaly during that period, and the song would have been better without them. So would those Who songs. Keyboards have never improved a song. ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/204 "2010-10-01T14:33:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The synths on “Tom Sawyer” were an anomaly during that period, and the song would have been better without them. So would those Who songs. Keyboards have never improved a song. Really? Because, like, _every fucking song on **Moving Pictures** _ utilizes them. So that’s quite some anomaly. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/205 "2010-10-01T14:41:40Z")
You might be right. I haven’t listened to that album in a long time. When I do, I just tune out the synths. I wish they weren’t there, but at least the music is still basically driven by guitar. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/206 "2010-10-01T14:47:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Keyboards have never improved a song. If you insist on sticking to this ludicrous position, please say what you actually mean. _Keyboards_ is a category of instruments that includes piano, organ, harpsichord, Mellotron, etc., as well as most synthesizers. If Rick Wakeman plays one, it’s a keyboard. If you mean _synthesizers_–not all of which have keyboards–then say synthesizers. No one cares if you used to hang out with a crowd that didn’t know the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/207 "2010-10-01T14:56:04Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > The synths on “Tom Sawyer” were an anomaly during that period, and the song would have been better without them. So would those Who songs. Keyboards have never improved a song. > > Really? Because, like, _every fucking song on **Moving Pictures** _ utilizes them. So that’s quite some anomaly. A lot of Rush fans feel like Diogenes does as well. I’m very much into progressive rock, so the keyboards don’t bother me. I do know that Alex Lifeson was reputed to have threatened to quit at times during the 80s because he felt like the guitar was getting a little lost. That’s definitely not the case on their recent stuff. As much as any Rush song has a hook, the keyboards on Tom Sawyer are probably that. The interplay in the bridge between the keybaords and drum fills leading into the guitar solo are … iconic? No, not that, but certainly are distinctly memorable. But see, this is Dio expressing forcefully an opinion I completely disagree with. This is me not flipping my lid as a result. It’s no skin off my nose if he ever knuckles under and agrees about keyboards and Rush music, or in rock more generally. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/208 "2010-10-01T15:02:06Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > Keyboards have never improved a song. > > If you insist on sticking to this ludicrous position, please say what you actually mean. _Keyboards_ is a category of instruments that includes piano, organ, harpsichord, Mellotron, etc., as well as most synthesizers. If Rick Wakeman plays one, it’s a keyboard. If you mean _synthesizers_–not all of which have keyboards–then say synthesizers. No one cares if you used to hang out with a crowd that didn’t know the difference. “Keyboards” was always shorthand for electronic keyboard instruments. I was was a working musician for a long time and never heard anybody call a piano a “keyboard.” They called them pianos. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/209 "2010-10-01T15:18:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > > > If you insist on sticking to this ludicrous position, please say what you actually mean. _Keyboards_ is a category of instruments that includes piano, organ, harpsichord, Mellotron, etc., as well as most synthesizers. If Rick Wakeman plays one, it’s a keyboard. If you mean _synthesizers_–not all of which have keyboards–then say synthesizers. No one cares if you used to hang out with a crowd that didn’t know the difference. > > “Keyboards” was always shorthand for electronic keyboard instruments. I was was a working musician for a long time and never heard anybody call a piano a “keyboard.” They called them pianos. So, when you said this: [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Yes, the E Street band would be better without the keyboards, in my opinion. [/QUOTE] you meant only the synths, not the piano, organ and accordion? ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/210 "2010-10-01T15:51:21Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Keyboards have never improved a song. This basic position is ludicrous - and I state that as one of the biggest guitar geeks on the Dope. You are welcome to feel that way, but then to assert “expertise in rock” is a non-starter. Whether or not the person making this statement can see that is immaterial. Given that, can we just move on? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/211 "2010-10-01T16:14:04Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Keyboards have never improved a song. Tell it to Bach. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/212 "2010-10-01T16:24:17Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Given that, can we just move on? I don’t mean to pick on you, but I’m quoting this as an example, since I think it represents part of the problem. You don’t have to ask if you can move on from a disagreement with Diogenes or anyone else on the internet. Just move on. Seems like people think that because he expresses a different opinion in some kind of way that they are compelled to be locked in a death struggle about it. If that were true, I would understand being upset about how he expresses his opinions. It’s just not the case. Move on, whether he agrees with you or not. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/213 "2010-10-01T16:27:35Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > > [@WordMan](#): > > > > Given that, can we just move on? > > I don’t mean to pick on you, but I’m quoting this as an example, since I think it represents part of the problem. You don’t have to ask if you can move on from a disagreement with Diogenes or anyone else on the internet. Just move on. > > Seems like people think that because he expresses a different opinion in some kind of way that they are compelled to be locked in a death struggle about it. If that were true, I would understand being upset about how he expresses his opinions. It’s just not the case. Move on, whether he agrees with you or not. Fine by me. I’m normal looking for open-minded, civil discourse. But you’re correct, if someone demonstrates inflexibility, it is not worth investing the time to engage in an online setting… ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/214 "2010-10-01T16:30:50Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > The synths on “Tom Sawyer” were an anomaly during that period… > > Really? Because, like, _every fucking song on **Moving Pictures** _ utilizes them. So that’s quite some anomaly. For that matter, every Rush studio album from A Farewell to Kings to Test for Echo features synths\*. Which apparently makes 2/3 of Rush’s discography an anomaly. \*Plus a pair of albums outside that range which feature mellotron, which I’m omitting until we get an official Dio ruling on whether or not they’re part of class of keyboards that render songs sucky. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/215 "2010-10-01T16:36:47Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > For that matter, every Rush studio album from A Farewell to Kings to Test for Echo features synths\*. Which apparently makes 2/3 of Rush’s discography an anomaly. > \*Plus a pair of albums outside that range which feature mellotron, which I’m omitting until we get an official Dio ruling on whether or not they’re part of class of keyboards that render songs sucky. This is complicated by the fact that not all of the synths on Rush albums are keyboards; some of them are guitar synthesizers. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/216 "2010-10-01T16:42:00Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > > > I don’t mean to pick on you, but I’m quoting this as an example, since I think it represents part of the problem. You don’t have to ask if you can move on from a disagreement with Diogenes or anyone else on the internet. Just move on. > > > > Seems like people think that because he expresses a different opinion in some kind of way that they are compelled to be locked in a death struggle about it. If that were true, I would understand being upset about how he expresses his opinions. It’s just not the case. Move on, whether he agrees with you or not. > > Fine by me. I’m normal looking for open-minded, civil discourse. But you’re correct, if someone demonstrates inflexibility, it is not worth investing the time to engage in an online setting… True. It’s even possible to do without making any snarky walking away comments at all… ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/217 "2010-10-01T16:46:25Z")
And I can’t believe that I’m just now focusing on the utter cluelessness on display when **Dio** singles out (and bags on) a band like Talking Heads as being overly reliant on keyboards (which I guess is **Dio** -speak for “synth pop”), when nothing could be further from the truth. True, they’ve always explored various forms of ethnic music and have ventured down many different rhythmic avenues as a result, but I guess since wank-ish, blooze-based rawk isn’t their preferred idiom, then they’re a bunch of art fags who limp-wristedly suck silverback gorilla 'nads. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/218 "2010-10-01T16:57:09Z")
> [@MTCicero](#): > > And I can’t believe that I’m just now focusing on the utter cluelessness on display when **Dio** singles out (and bags on) a band like Talking Heads as being overly reliant on keyboards (which I guess is **Dio** -speak for “synth pop”), when nothing could be further from the truth. True, they’ve always explored various forms of ethnic music and have ventured down many different rhythmic avenues as a result, but I guess since wank-ish, blooze-based rawk isn’t their preferred idiom, then they’re a bunch of art fags who limp-wristedly suck silverback gorilla 'nads. It would be much better if you would quote specifically what it is that Diogenes said when you decide to go off on it, because in searching back, your paraphrase of what he said seems off to me. He didn’t even bring up the Talking Heads first. Despite this being an inaccurate representation of what he said, I can guarantee you that a bunch of people will come in to echo your paraphrase, jumping up and down, howling and flinging poo at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/219 "2010-10-01T17:02:51Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > > [@WordMan](#): > > > > Fine by me. I’m normal looking for open-minded, civil discourse. But you’re correct, if someone demonstrates inflexibility, it is not worth investing the time to engage in an online setting… > > True. It’s even possible to do without making any snarky walking away comments at all… Pot, meet kettle. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![MTCicero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@MTCicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTCicero)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486/220 "2010-10-01T17:03:12Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Roll your eyes all you want, but that was the culture of the subgenre I was part of in the 80’s and 90’s. The kind of people I jammed with listened to none of that stuff on your list. If it had keyboards it wasn’t metal. You don’t have to agree with that, but I assure, you that’s how they thought. **It was largely a reaction against synth-pop and new wave (stuff like the Talking Heads was exactly what we despised)**. This good enough for you, Mom? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2011-rock-and-roll-hall-of-fame-nominees/555486.md?page=12)