# 2012 Baseball Hall of Fame ballot **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 28, 2011, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/607583 "2011-12-28T01:29:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/607583/61 "2012-01-08T01:22:10Z")
> [@mweb](#): > > I didn’t word that well. I think that for some players in particular, like Walker, the adjustment isn’t enough given the absurd splits. > > His career OPS at Coors is 1.172! His tOPS there is 141! His careers OPS+ is 140, home and away. If Walker took particular advantage of Coors, that is real value, and he deserves full credit for it. It helped his team win games. > [@](#): > > So he took advantage of Coors more than would be expected based on the OPS+ adjustment. It may be unfair to hold that against him, but my thinking is if he had stayed with the Expos or gone to any other team, his career wouldn’t have as much value. I admit I don’t really get this. He didn’t stay in Montreal. He went to Colorado. We aren’t discussing the candidacy of a theoretical Larry Walker that stayed in Montreal. I mean, if he’d stayed in Montreal, maybe the Expos make the playoffs in 1996 and win the World Series and Walker wins the World Series MVP Award; we haven’t any idea what would have happened, really. I’m not a big Larry Walker fan and I don’t expect him to be elected to the Hall and don’t care; it’s just that discussions amongst insightful baseball fans always seem to agree Edgar is deserving and yet never seem to be as enthusiastic about a range of other players who appear to be equally deserving, and Walker’s the poster child for that. Every analytial stat says Walker and Martinez are equally valuable, but with Martinez the discussion always seems to talk about what he did well and with Walker it’s always “but he played in Coors.” Well, yeah, he did, but he was still just as valuable. I’m not sure why this is. I suspect it’s partially backlash against people saying “blar blar blar DHs suck” with the justified feeling that a DH who hits great is valuable. But I think part of it is also Bill James’s “Killebrew-Carew effect” - his idea and example, but my term - that players who specialize in doing one thing really well tend to be overrated while players who are very good at many things are underrated. ---
**Author:** ![mweb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9c0ed/32.png) [@mweb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mweb)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/607583/62 "2012-01-08T20:20:50Z")
It’s simply that I and other aren’t sure we should give him full credit for playing in a unique park that clearly elevated his game to a new level even after adjusting for park values. If you don’t get that, fine. I can see both sides and that’s why I’m on the fence. ---
**Author:** ![mweb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9c0ed/32.png) [@mweb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mweb)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/607583/63 "2012-01-08T20:21:52Z")
Can anyone who is voting for Morris make a case for him? ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/607583/64 "2012-01-09T19:43:12Z")
Someone leaked that Larkin got in. As far as the Doper Baseball Hall of Fame, looks like we elected Larkin and Raines, with Bagwell and E-Mart at or over 60%. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/607583/65 "2012-01-09T20:09:25Z")
Cool, I can now say that I played against a Hall of Famer. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/607583/66 "2012-01-09T20:23:00Z")
Larkin was the only one voted in. I have not seen the numbers yet. Raines has got to be close. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/607583/67 "2012-01-09T20:24:09Z")
I voted **Larkin** , **Morris** , **Raines** , **Martinez** , **Trammell** , **Mattingly** , **Murphy** , and **Bernie Williams**. Of these, I think only **Morris** and **Trammell** could be arguable, IMESHO. I purposely left off the known steroids guys (McGwire/Palmiero). ---
**Author:** ![mweb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9c0ed/32.png) [@mweb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mweb)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/607583/68 "2012-01-09T20:47:58Z")
> [@FuriousGeorge](#): > > I voted **Larkin** , **Morris** , **Raines** , **Martinez** , **Trammell** , **Mattingly** , **Murphy** , and **Bernie Williams**. Of these, I think only **Morris** and **Trammell** could be arguable, IMESHO. > > I purposely left off the known steroids guys (McGwire/Palmiero). Morris isn’t even arguable as far as I’m concerned. Meaning I can’t see a logical case for him. Same with Mattingly. Murphy and Williams come up short of HOF standards too imo. ---
**Author:** ![mweb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9c0ed/32.png) [@mweb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mweb)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/607583/69 "2012-01-09T20:49:24Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Larkin was the only one voted in. I have not seen the numbers yet. Raines has got to be close. 48.7 for Raines. 56% for Bagwell. Somehow Morris is up to 66.7%. > **[Home - BBWAA](https://bbwaa.com/)** > > This is the home page. ---
**Author:** ![Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dread_pirate_jimbo/32/3897_2.png) [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dread_Pirate_Jimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/607583/70 "2012-01-09T20:53:44Z")
Absolute travesty that Raines is so low on that voters list. The rest I can see cases for or against, even if I don’t completely agree. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/607583/71 "2012-01-09T20:54:39Z")
That’s up 15 for Bagwell (and Morris), and 10 for Raines. Those numbers actually look pretty good for Raines, long-term (though the crowded ballots coming up might be an issue). At this point, it’s pretty hard to see Morris staying out. McGwire had 3 fewer voters than last year. I wouldn’t be surprised if he stuck at about 20% for all fifteen years on the ballot. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/607583/72 "2012-01-09T21:11:06Z")
Congratulations to Larkin, who definitely belongs in the Hall and should have been elected even sooner. The BBWAA notes that he had one of the biggest one-year jumps in support ever, going to about 86 percent from 62. Bagwell is moving in the right direction and it looks like he’ll get in eventually. I think it’s ridiculous that Raines and some other candidates are getting so few votes even though some of them will probably make it eventually. It also bugs me - maybe more than it should - that a borderline candidate like Morris is probably going to get in because people _feel_, based on wins and some clutch performances, that he’s a Hall of Famer while guys who have a more solid, objective argument have to wait. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/607583/73 "2012-01-09T21:11:37Z")
> [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](#): > > Absolute travesty that Raines is so low on that voters list. The rest I can see cases for or against, even if I don’t completely agree. It is, but it’s an improvement. It’s his biggest jump yet. 2008: 24% 2009: 23% 2010: 30% 2011: 37% 2012: 48% There’s a big batch coming up, but I think he has a shot. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/607583/74 "2012-01-09T21:40:23Z")
My boy, Lee Smith, got about a 5% bump up to 50.6% with only 5 more years on the ballot. Morris has only got 2 more years on the ballot, so he’s definitely not a sure thing even though he made a big jump this year. Edgar Martinez lost a percentage point from last year, which is interesting. It looks like Bagwell, Raines and maybe Morris will eventually get there, but that might be it from this ballot. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/607583/75 "2012-01-09T21:45:05Z")
My google-fu failed me. I remember reading the highest percentage of vote totals for a player who was not ultimately elected, and it was surprisingly low - it might have been Ron Santo at 40-something. Anyone have a better recollection? ---
**Author:** ![Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dread_pirate_jimbo/32/3897_2.png) [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dread_Pirate_Jimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/607583/76 "2012-01-09T22:21:20Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > It is, but it’s an improvement. It’s his biggest jump yet. > > 2008: 24% > 2009: 23% > 2010: 30% > 2011: 37% > 2012: 48% > > There’s a big batch coming up, but I think he has a shot. He has a shot, to be sure, but he’ll be waiting another three years at least, based on how his voting percentages have gone and, for me, he’s a no-brainer. He shouldn’t have to wait at all, much less the better part of a decade, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/607583/77 "2012-01-09T22:43:35Z")
Normally, a guy like Jack Morris would have to be mighty happy- his total votes increased substantially, and in an ordinary year, he’d have to think he was a lock to make it next time. But he’s not. There are far too many guys with MUCH better stats coming up next year and the year after. Jack Morris only has two more years on the ballot, and he will NOT be one of best players on the ballot either year. I’ve read that, up to now, EVERY player who’s gotten as high a percentage of the vote as Morris got this year has eventually been elected. I think he’ll be the first NOT to. This was his last, best chance. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/607583/78 "2012-01-09T22:57:27Z")
astorian: > [@](#): > > I think he’ll be the first NOT to. This was his last, best chance. He’ll always have the Vets Committee to fall back on. ---
**Author:** ![mweb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9c0ed/32.png) [@mweb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mweb)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/607583/79 "2012-01-09T23:03:34Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Normally, a guy like Jack Morris would have to be mighty happy- his total votes increased substantially, and in an ordinary year, he’d have to think he was a lock to make it next time. > > But he’s not. There are far too many guys with MUCH better stats coming up next year and the year after. Jack Morris only has two more years on the ballot, and he will NOT be one of best players on the ballot either year. > > I’ve read that, up to now, EVERY player who’s gotten as high a percentage of the vote as Morris got this year has eventually been elected. > > I think he’ll be the first NOT to. This was his last, best chance. I hope that’s the case, but lots of those guys with much better stats are known or suspected steroid users. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/607583/80 "2012-01-09T23:10:27Z")
> [@mweb](#): > > I hope that’s the case, but lots of those guys with much better stats are known or suspected steroid users. Certainly, there will be many voters with qualms about electing Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens or Sammy Sosa (even though all are far more worthy, statistically, than Morris). But even if they’re excluded, Curt Schilling is at LEAST as good a choice as Jack Morris, has at LEAST as memorable a record in the post-season. I think people who look at the ballot wil conclude that Morris doesn’t compare that well with Schilling. Then there’s still Craig Biggio and Mike Piazza, who are both better choices. And the year after, Greg Maddux and Tommy Glavine will be on the ballot. Both were MUCH better than Morris, and will probably go in on the first ballot. I don’t think his chances improve after this year. I think this was his last big chance to get in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/607583.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot/607583.md?page=5)