# 2012 NFL Offseason - OTAs and Training Camp **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 3, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-offseason-otas-and-training-camp/620798 "2012-05-03T22:20:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-offseason-otas-and-training-camp/620798/21 "2012-05-07T03:56:05Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I will take this moment to randomly declare that Andy Dalton is massively overrated. People act as though he were the center of the Bengal’s turnaround, but his play was pretty meh all year. What success he did have was just chucking the ball up to AJ Green - who really is that good. If you look at his stats throwing to everyone but AJ Green, they’re pretty bad. Even with AJ Green, they rise to mediocre game manager type levels. > > Which is a decent enough performance for a rookie, but I keep seeing him praised as being unexpectedly great or leading the Bengal’s season, and I just didn’t see anything out of him that was very impressive. He may develop, but right now he’s massively overrated. I didn’t watch enough Bengals games to thoroughly evaluate him, and I’m not sure how raw he is and what his upside could be, but my current opinion on him is that he’s very Pennington-esque. Whether he can ever grow beyond that, time will tell. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-offseason-otas-and-training-camp/620798/22 "2012-05-07T06:34:30Z")
I don’t know, I think you might be besmirching the good name of Chad Pennington, who was a pretty awesome quarterback when healthy. Granted, he sat on the bench his first two years while Dalton was thrown in as a rookie, but OTOH Dalton was 23rd in Comp% last year, a rank that could never be associated with Pennington, rookie or no (he’s the all-time leader in the stat). So I’m not sure how similar they can be, unless you just meant in terms of overall quality, in which case it strikes me unlikely but is entirely possible. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-offseason-otas-and-training-camp/620798/23 "2012-05-07T09:50:31Z")
Who’s the other “ginger” besides Dalton? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-offseason-otas-and-training-camp/620798/24 "2012-05-07T12:03:04Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I didn’t watch enough Bengals games to thoroughly evaluate him, and I’m not sure how raw he is and what his upside could be, but my current opinion on him is that he’s very Pennington-esque. If he’s Chad Pennington minus the injuries, the Bengals are set at QB for the next decade. He’s not an immortal, but Pennington was Very Good. I suspect Dalton will be Very Good. You can win with a Very Good QB. For a bad team, finding a Very Good rookie QB is a big deal. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-offseason-otas-and-training-camp/620798/25 "2012-05-07T14:34:46Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > Who’s the other “ginger” besides Dalton? Wheedon, the Browns rookie QB they just drafted. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-offseason-otas-and-training-camp/620798/26 "2012-05-07T15:17:00Z")
> [@foiegrasisevil](#): > > wheedon, the browns rookie qb they just drafted. Weeden. Weeden. [Weeden.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Weeden) [Whedon.](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0923736/) ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-offseason-otas-and-training-camp/620798/27 "2012-05-07T22:00:52Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > I don’t know, I think you might be besmirching the good name of Chad Pennington, who was a pretty awesome quarterback when healthy. Granted, he sat on the bench his first two years while Dalton was thrown in as a rookie, but OTOH Dalton was 23rd in Comp% last year, a rank that could never be associated with Pennington, rookie or no (he’s the all-time leader in the stat). So I’m not sure how similar they can be, unless you just meant in terms of overall quality, in which case it strikes me unlikely but is entirely possible. > [@furt](#): > > If he’s Chad Pennington minus the injuries, the Bengals are set at QB for the next decade. > > He’s not an immortal, but Pennington was Very Good. I suspect Dalton will be Very Good. You can win with a Very Good QB. For a bad team, finding a Very Good rookie QB is a big deal. I knew this was coming and I know the completion numbers, but I think it’s misleading. Pennington sucked. He was the consummate game manager and with a HOF RB he never managed to win anything of note, his career record is a mediocre 46-41. If that’s “Very Good” you’re welcome to have him. Yeah, he was very accurate inside of 10 yards. Yes, he was a good leader, but that’s not all that rare. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2012, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-offseason-otas-and-training-camp/620798/28 "2012-05-07T23:33:24Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I knew this was coming and I know the completion numbers, but I think it’s misleading. Pennington sucked. He was the consummate game manager and with a HOF RB he never managed to win anything of note, his career record is a mediocre 46-41. If that’s “Very Good” you’re welcome to have him. Yeah, he was very accurate inside of 10 yards. Yes, he was a good leader, but that’s not all that rare. Hey now, if you think Comp% is too misleading, \*Wins \*can’t be your fall-back. It’s perennially the most misleading stat for players, across all sports. Pennington is no exception here: his defense sucked. Their numbers look pretty decent if you go by points allowed, but that’s largely because of the offense: they played an effective ball control game, moving the sticks with few incompletions (thus keeping the game short) and very rarely turning the ball over (no short fields). DVOA, accounting for this and measuring the defense on a play-by-play basis, tells the story – from 2002-2007, Pennington’s years as a starter, the Jets defense ranked: 27th, 26th, 14th, 18th, 27th, and 26th. They won as many games as they did (and made the playoffs three times) because the offense ranked: 4th, 7th, 4th, then Pennington is injured and the offense ranks 31st, then 12th, then Pennington sits out half the year and they’re 23rd (I checked, they were moderately better with Pennington). And look at the Dolphins offense. Pennington started one year for them, 2008. Here are the Dolphins offensive DVOA ranks from 2003 to present, with 2008 bolded: 17th, 31st, 18th, 26th, 21st, _ **7th** _, 16th, 18th, 20th. (And in that one year, the Dolphins defense was 15th, but the offense was good enough to get them to 11-5). Curtis Martin was a very, very good RB, but the Jets running game overall, from 2002-07, was entirely ordinary. DVOA ranks were: 21st, 11th, 2nd, 18th, 18th, and 28th (avg: 16.3). Keep in mind that 2004 was Martin’s last good year. In '05 he had a 3.3 YPC. In '06 he was gone and the Jets had no real RB; Leon Washington led the team in rushing with a 151-for-650, and the only two other guys to get meaningful carries combined for 244-for-744 (3.0 YPC!). In '07 Thomas Jones carried the ball 310 times at 3.6 YPC clip (with 1 TD). Chad Pennington would be the prototypical game manager QB if “game manager” weren’t an insult. Instead, we can just say that he was extremely efficient, and NFL teams can win a lot of games with an extremely efficient, non-flashy passing offense, so long as the rest of the team holds up it’s end of the bargain. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-offseason-otas-and-training-camp/620798/29 "2012-05-08T00:41:37Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I knew this was coming and I know the completion numbers, but I think it’s misleading. Pennington sucked. He was the consummate game manager and with a HOF RB he never managed to win anything of note, his career record is a mediocre 46-41. If that’s “Very Good” you’re welcome to have him. Yeah, he was very accurate inside of 10 yards. Yes, he was a good leader, but that’s not all that rare. 1. Pennington’s career yards per attempt was 7.2; well above league average during his career, and higher than Elway, Favre, Aikman, Eli Manning, and McNabb. So, the “only threw short passes” argument seems mythical. 2. His teams were 44-37 with him at QB during the regular season … and 24-39 with all other people. His teams also scored more points with him than without him. It seems fair to say he spent his career making mediocre-to-bad teams good enough to make the playoffs, though he was not able to take them farther. That sounds like Very Good to me. Other than the injuries, by what objective criteria did he suck? ---
**Author:** ![PSXer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/48db29/32.png) [@PSXer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PSXer)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-offseason-otas-and-training-camp/620798/30 "2012-05-08T00:44:38Z")
With the Saints in disarray it’s time for Cam Newton to step up and win the division the rest of the team can help too I guess ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-offseason-otas-and-training-camp/620798/31 "2012-05-08T02:25:12Z")
> [@furt](#): > > 1. Pennington’s career yards per attempt was 7.2; well above league average during his career, and higher than Elway, Favre, Aikman, Eli Manning, and McNabb. So, the “only threw short passes” argument seems mythical. It is most certainly not mythical. The reason Pennington’s YPA is so high is because A) he had an ungodly (best ever!) completion percentage, and B) the entire offense was designed around YAC. To compare Pennington with someone like Eli in the context of Pennington being a vertical passer is a joke. Take it from someone who watched pretty much every snap of both of their careers. (I missed a handful of Pennington Jets games plus his season in Miami.) EDIT: Also, Eli’s YPA numbers were greatly hamstrung by his early-season completion % issues, which still (and likely always will) weigh down his rate numbers. The last three seasons, Eli’s YPA were 7.9, 7.4, 8.4, well above Pennington. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-offseason-otas-and-training-camp/620798/32 "2012-05-08T11:50:02Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > It is most certainly not mythical. The reason Pennington’s YPA is so high is because A) he had an ungodly (best ever!) completion percentage, and B) the entire offense was designed around YAC. > > To compare Pennington with someone like Eli in the context of Pennington being a vertical passer is a joke. Take it from someone who watched pretty much every snap of both of their careers. (I missed a handful of Pennington Jets games plus his season in Miami.) > > EDIT: Also, Eli’s YPA numbers were greatly hamstrung by his early-season completion % issues, which still (and likely always will) weigh down his rate numbers. The last three seasons, Eli’s YPA were 7.9, 7.4, 8.4, well above Pennington. Nobody’s saying Pennington was a downfield bomber, or that his career averages are going to be better than a possible hall-of-famer’s best years. In point of fact, though, over his career, Pennington’s YPA was 8% than the league average. (see [Y/A+](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PennCh01.htm) here) [Eli](http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm) has done better than that only twice in eight seasons, and only then when he had Nicks, Manningham and (in 2011) Cruz; Pennington spent his career throwing to people like Lavernaeus Coles and Jerricho Cotchery. In Miami, he went 11-5 throwing to Ted Ginn, Greg Camarillo, and Davone Bess. Yes, he struggled to throw the deep out or drill the skinny post into a tight window that makes scouts get moist. But the claim in question was that Pennington “sucked,” and that he was only accurate within ten yards. Sorry, but I see no sign of that, either in the stats or on film. It was a comparative weakness and a significant limitation; that’s not the same thing as complete inability, and it wasn’t enough to stop him from being well above average: i.e. Very Good. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-offseason-otas-and-training-camp/620798/33 "2012-05-08T13:19:43Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Yes, he struggled to throw the deep out or drill the skinny post into a tight window that makes scouts get moist. But the claim in question was that Pennington “sucked,” and that he was only accurate within ten yards. Sorry, but I see no sign of that, either in the stats or on film. It was a comparative weakness and a significant limitation; that’s not the same thing as complete inability, and it wasn’t enough to stop him from being well above average: i.e. Very Good. I don’t know what film you’re talking about. In watching his entire career, he did struggle on throws beyond 10 yards. He was ridiculously accurate on shorter throws, though, which pumps up his YPA. I never argued that he sucked; I would rate him Very Good at a bare minimum, probably better than that. I scoff at your comparison to Eli, though, as if the two were even in the same universe in terms of downfield passing. I had to chuckle at you touting Eli’s receivers while downplaying The Chad’s, btw. I don’t see much in Manningham’s future, and Eli made Steve Smith look like a superstar. How’d he look with your Eagles? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-offseason-otas-and-training-camp/620798/34 "2012-05-08T15:50:10Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I never argued that he sucked; I would rate him Very Good at a bare minimum, Then WTF is your point? I wasn’t making an explicit comparison between Manning and Pennington. I was pointing out that Pennington’s YPA is comparable to lots of guys with big, strong sexy arms, and Manning was jus one on the list. You can say he “struggled” all you want, but he had enough to get the job done. D Coordinators knew he didn’t have a strong arm, defended accordingly, and he still made them pay: and yes that included the occasional accurately-placed deep throw. They don’t give you extra points for being sexy while you do it. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-offseason-otas-and-training-camp/620798/35 "2012-05-08T17:06:40Z")
I don’t care what the stats say, I watched him a lot with my own eyes and I’m sticking with “he sucked.” He didn’t suck like JaMarcus Russell sucked, but he sucked in his own special way. No team ever circled a Pennington game on their calendar and every team that had him was looking for ways to replace him the minute they saw him use every shred of strength in his body to get the ball to the hash marks. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-offseason-otas-and-training-camp/620798/36 "2012-05-08T17:12:17Z")
Dalton wasn’t great, but “sucked” is doing him a disservice considering the circumstances (a rookie QB on the _Bengals_). ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-offseason-otas-and-training-camp/620798/37 "2012-05-08T23:52:02Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Weeden. Weeden. [Weeden.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Weeden) > [Whedon.](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0923736/) Ah, the Browns team motto then: “We done”. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-offseason-otas-and-training-camp/620798/38 "2012-05-09T00:35:04Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I don’t care what the stats say, I watched him a lot with my own eyes and I’m sticking with “he sucked.” He didn’t suck like JaMarcus Russell sucked, but he sucked in his own special way. No team ever circled a Pennington game on their calendar and every team that had him was looking for ways to replace him the minute they saw him use every shred of strength in his body to get the ball to the hash marks. IOW, “Yeah he won games, moved the ball, had excellent stats, earned the respect of his peers, convinced multiple coaches that he was worth building around … but he sucked because I say he did.” I cannot argue with that logic. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-offseason-otas-and-training-camp/620798/39 "2012-05-09T00:55:08Z")
> [@furt](#): > > IOW, “Yeah he won games, moved the ball, had excellent stats, earned the respect of his peers, convinced multiple coaches that he was worth building around … but he sucked because I say he did.” > > I cannot argue with that logic. I’m gonna say that the only one of those statements that I’d agree with is that he had excellent stats, and “excellent” is pushing it a tad. As for winning games, he wasn’t anything to write home about and I don’t think he got much respect from peers or coaches. You seem to have a wildly inflated opinion of the cult of the Chaz. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-offseason-otas-and-training-camp/620798/40 "2012-05-09T03:56:08Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Then WTF is your point? My fucking point is that your fucking claim that… > [@furt](#): > > So, the “only threw short passes” argument seems mythical. …is fucking idiotic. Even more fucking stupid is that you then pointed to Eli as evidence. That is WTF my point is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-offseason-otas-and-training-camp/620798.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-offseason-otas-and-training-camp/620798.md?page=3)