# 2012 NFL Pre-Draft Discussion **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 8, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215 "2012-02-08T18:05:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/181 "2012-02-29T18:20:10Z")
Hello, my name is **Omni** and I’m a Green Bay Packers shareholder. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/182 "2012-02-29T19:01:48Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Young, at least early in his career, was certainly a running quarterback. Absolutely! Once he realized he was a QUARTERBACK, he became a HoFer. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/183 "2012-02-29T19:16:42Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > People shouldn’t be searching for reasons not to upgrade the QB position. You never hear “sure, that linebacker looks like crap and has major flaws and never seems to make a play, but if we just surround him with a hall of fame D-line, and maybe get him some new coaching, and build the defense around him, he might be okay” > > But they grow emotionally attached to whoever the QB is, as the most identifiable player of the franchise. So they make excuses for him. You hear stuff like “even [insert hall of fame] QB wouldn’t look any better here!”, he might secretly be great but you’d never know because of the supporting cast, etc. > > Now to some degree it’s true - obviously a better supporting cast would get better results - but you can evaluate a QB considering that. Some people say “wow, our QB got sacked 50 times last year, our O-line sucks, he has no chance”, but they don’t bother to notice that half his sacks came after the point where he had the ball for 3.5 seconds, where he held the ball too long or scrambled around with bad pocket presence and freed a guy up to hit him. They’ll say “our receivers lead the league in drops”, but fail to notice how many times the QB made the receiver try to bend backwards to catch a wobbler thrown behind them, resulting in them barely getting a finger on it, scoring as a drop. > > And furthermore, there are basically two types of young QBs - there are the guys who have all the physical attributes you want but aren’t quite up to the mental game. You give those guys a few years to develop and see if they can put it all together. And there are guys who have a limited set of physical skills, but they’re smart, maybe they played in a complex offense in college, and they usually have accuracy and timing if not mobility and a rocket arm. Those are the guys who you expect to do pretty good immediately, but rarely be great. > > McCoy was sold as the latter - a guy who had timing, touch, accuracy, the ability to read a defense, etc. He should come out of the gates doing fairly well. But fans want to treat him like the former type - a guy with all the physical skills that you need to give time to just to get it. Why in the world would you give time to a guy who’s supposed to be one of the low ceiling/NFL ready early succeeders who actually started out pretty bad? That’s the worst of both worlds. > > McCoy has terrible pocket presence - he runs into his own sacks over and over. He holds the ball too long. He has poor technique, throws off his back foot necesarily, can’t spin the ball correctly and has a lot of wobblers, can’t anticipate routes - only throws after the receiver made a break, misses lots of guys streaking downfield while open, is way overly conservative - won’t throw to a guy unless he’s college-open, not nfl-open, which is why his interception per play is good but everything else per play is bad. > > There’s nothing McCoy has shown that makes you think “just give him more time, pass up on a better prospect” - his ceiling isn’t that high, and his floor isn’t either. There’s nothing he does where you think “this guy is going to be special one day”. He’s in fact regressed. > > So no, I don’t buy the idea that McCoy should be given more weapons. The weapons should be given something better than McCoy - the Browns receivers wouldn’t look so bad if they didn’t have to bend over backwards to catch wobbler one bounce passes, the O-line wouldn’t look so bad if they didn’t have to hold their blocks twice as long as they should, etc. The Browns O-line is actually one of the best in the league, but people are convinced that it’s terrible because of how often McCoy gets himself into trouble. > > There is absolutely no reason, no reason whatsoever, in QB driven league, to pass up on an elite prospect like RG3 when gven the chance. Well said. As a Bengals fan, I recognize the aroma of hope. It was my daily gruel every offseason from 1992-2003. Unfortunately for me that hope was illusory in those days, but its so much better now. You know, I hope you guys do get RGIII and become competitive again. I feel a much more friendly, milder sense of rivalry between the Ohio teams than I do with the Steelers and Ravens. I am sure it has a lot to do with our teams being the doormats to those teams for so long, but still. I’d love to see the division flip-flop where the Ohio teams dominate and those other guys suffer through a stretch of mediocrity or worse. > [@EllisDee](#): > > Right now I’d have to say the 2006 Colts were a truly BAD team that won it all with Peyton. And if I weren’t a Giants fan, I might draw a parallel between the 2006 Colts and the 2011 Giants. For some reason I’m thinking both were 32nd in the league in rushing; can that be right? Would be an odd coincidence. I think two things about the Colts: one, you cannot truly be a BAD team with an offense like the Colts have had pretty much the entire duration of Manning’s career. Peyton, good to great running backs, good to great wideouts and TE’s and at least a decent offensive line. Of course it all hinges on one guy, so you can point to the rest of the team, but…it’s Peyton Manning, one of the very best ever to play. The other thing relevant to the 2006 Colts is that their defense, which had been so poor statistically during the regular season except for sacks, played really well when it counted (in the playoffs). I think people forget just how important Bob Sanders was to that team during that run once he got healthy. That guy was a great player, just seemingly always hurt. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/184 "2012-02-29T20:58:42Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Hello, my name is **Omni** and I’m a Green Bay Packers shareholder. :smack: Welcome to the club! You can pick up your foam cheesehead at the registration desk. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/185 "2012-02-29T20:59:11Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Hello, my name is **Omni** and I’m a Green Bay Packers shareholder. :smack: Nice. They’ll use the money well, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/186 "2012-02-29T21:18:37Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Welcome to the club! You can pick up your foam cheesehead at the registration desk. 😉 > [@Hamlet](#): > > Nice. They’ll use the money well, I’m sure. I’m framing it and hanging it in the shitter. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2012, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/187 "2012-02-29T22:48:16Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I’m framing it and hanging it in the shitter. Makes sense. The prospect of facing Aaron Rodgers and the Packers for the next decade should scare the shit out of any Bears fan. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/188 "2012-02-29T22:55:25Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Makes sense. The prospect of facing Aaron Rodgers and the Packers for the next decade should scare the shit out of any Bears fan. Well played, sir. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/189 "2012-03-01T02:36:01Z")
Hines Ward got released. DBs can rest a little easier knowing they don’t have to watch out for a blow to the head 5 seconds after the whistle blows. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/190 "2012-03-01T03:44:31Z")
Well, for now. I’m sure someone will pick him up. Ravens might pick him up just for spite. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/191 "2012-03-01T17:51:49Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Hines Ward got released. DBs can rest a little easier knowing they don’t have to watch out for a blow to the head 5 seconds after the whistle blows. To continue the AFC North talk, Jerome Simpson pleaded guilty to felony drug possession (no intent to deliver) with sentencing set in April. He may get jailtime, and a 4 game suspension by the NFL is likely. He’ll be a free agent and some team may give him a shot on their roster if he works hard enough. And Peyton Hillis told ESPN he thought about retiring from football and joining the CIA last year. He too is a free agent, and he too may catch onto a club, but only if he shows he actually wants to play football. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/192 "2012-03-01T19:22:22Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > To continue the AFC North talk, Jerome Simpson pleaded guilty to felony drug possession (no intent to deliver) with sentencing set in April. He may get jailtime, and a 4 game suspension by the NFL is likely. He’ll be a free agent and some team may give him a shot on their roster if he works hard enough. And Peyton Hillis told ESPN he thought about retiring from football and joining the CIA last year. He too is a free agent, and he too may catch onto a club, but only if he shows he actually wants to play football. I think Simpson walks on the jail time, gets a stiff fine, probation and community service. Its not like he had a ton of weed in his house…only about 8 pounds or so. Anyway, I can’t decide if I want the Bengals to resign him or not. His off field shit aside, its tough to gauge his worth. He’s a guy that will make a highlight reel play (like the TD flip) in one game and then disappear the next game. We need more consistent production from our #2 WR to take pressure off of AJ Green and Andy Dalton. I am also loving the rumors swirling around the potential for a draft-day trade with the Cardinals to move from 17 to 13 in the first round to get Trent Richardson, if he’s there by then. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/193 "2012-03-01T22:00:07Z")
Well, it looks like the Eagles have [franchised](http://tracking.si.com/2012/03/01/report-eagles-place-franchise-tag-on-desean-jackson/?sct=hp_t2_a2&eref=sihp) Desean Jackson. That will eat up a bunch of cap space, I wonder how long he’ll hold out for a long-term deal. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/194 "2012-03-01T23:53:35Z")
I think there’s ZERO chance Ward gets signed by anyone else in the league unless there is a late injury in camp. The Steelers didn’t want Ward clogging up a roster spot, I see no reason anyone else would either. Good riddance. I’d be really surprised if Jerome Simpson avoids jail time. 8 pounds of weed is a buttload, if he gets the intent to sell charges dismissed that’s going to come with a jail time agreement in exchange. Goddell will certainly sit him for 4 games at least, might be 6 or 8 based on past issues. He’s a weird FA candidate. He got some crazy good measurables and still might have some exceptional upside, but if he pleads down this case teams aren’t going to be very convinced about his reformation. Teams aren’t going to pay for a head case who’s out for 4 games and runs a high risk of recidivism. Frankly I think the best thing is for the Bengals to resign him cheap. He knows the system and is actually a good compliment to Green if Green is asked to do more than be a deep threat, which up until now he hasn’t. Plus the Bengals love getting low character guys at a bargain. DeSean Jackson really screwed himself by being a jackass. The cap number is going to really sting for the Eagles and he’ll make a bunch of money but there’s no way another team is going to offer him anything long term. He basically ensured that he’ll be a career 1-2 year contract guy ala TO. Bang up job, it’s nice to know that this played out as badly as it possibly could for the Eagles. We’ll have to see if the Eagles find a way to negotiate a significantly cheaper long term deal. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/195 "2012-03-02T00:47:07Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > DeSean Jackson really screwed himself by being a jackass. The cap number is going to really sting for the Eagles and he’ll make a bunch of money but there’s no way another team is going to offer him anything long term. He basically ensured that he’ll be a career 1-2 year contract guy ala TO. Bang up job, it’s nice to know that this played out as badly as it possibly could for the Eagles. We’ll have to see if the Eagles find a way to negotiate a significantly cheaper long term deal. I agree with this; but I’m not sure it’s the best possible situation for them. As you suggest, I think it’s unlikely anyone will offer him a long-term big-money deal; problem is that he thinks they will. He’s gotten a lot of media hype, the kind that can make a guy think he’s an elite, top-10 type receiver, and may have bought it, and may want to get paid like one (instead of the rich man’s Ted Ginn he actually is). The franchise tag won’t change that: the only thing that disabuses someone of that notion is getting on the free market and finding out the hard way. I expect him to be traded, and the Eagles go after Colston or someone else. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/196 "2012-03-02T00:49:11Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > Yeah, the Combine talking heads have already declared him Ngata 2.0. I rather see him play a down or two in the NFL first(and Detroit doesn’t need DL, so I haven’t watched them much) But he does look impressively athletic at that size. I don’t see how you pass up Ngata 2.0, though. I wouldn’t go bonkers if the Lions drafted him. If he pans out, then perhaps Suh becomes a helluva bargaining chip or Fairley a lesser one. Either way, I’m totally fine with it. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/197 "2012-03-02T00:52:50Z")
The Bears officially cut DT Anthony Adams and OT Frank Omiyale to save $3.15M in cap room for 2012. They are now more than $30M under the cap and should have plenty of room to make a couple big FA additions even after they sign Forte which might come this weekend before the Franchise Tag deadline. Spice Adams was a great clubhouse guy and got a decent contract after a pretty strong 2010 campaign. Last season he was passed on the depth chart by youngsters Akoye and Paea and was little more than a rotational player. He’s still got some good football ahead of him but perhaps only at the veteran minimum. Omiyale probably should have been dumped last season because he’s been a garbage fire ever since he was signed in '09. The Bears can’t really afford to lose any lineman but Frank was a waste of a roster spot. Hopefully this will lead to them developing someone who actually has upside and possibly adding a FA to anchor the left side with the money saved. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/198 "2012-03-02T02:05:54Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Spice Adams was a great clubhouse guy and got a decent contract after a pretty strong 2010 campaign. I heard that he took out an advertisement in the Trib and Sun Times to thank the fans for their support. He seems like a class act. > [@Omni](#): > > Hopefully this will lead to them developing someone who actually has upside and possibly adding a FA to anchor the left side with the money saved. I really hope they still like/want to develop J’Marcus Webb at LT again. That would be cool. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/199 "2012-03-02T03:36:08Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Eli didn’t captain that offense the way Peyton does and I don’t think he’s up to his level yet, but the teams were very similar in that the had poor running games and secondaries but elite pass rushes. Essentially the passing game and pass rush won them that game, but I also don’t imagine this to be that rare a recipe if you were to dig. Eli carried the Giants in 2011. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/200 "2012-03-02T06:06:02Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I heard that he took out an advertisement in the Trib and Sun Times to thank the fans for their support. He seems like a class act. He was a media favorite. Always gave great interviews and was always available, he’s got a future working in radio or TV. Never heard anyone say a bad thing about him and he never seemed to have an inaccurate view of himself. When he was angling for a contract he was diplomatic about it and got rewarded for it, when he was released he was similarly classy and had a realistic appraisal of his performance. I’m sure if you take the cynical view you can just assume he’s laying it on thick and greasing the skids to get a post-career gig with one of the local stations, but even still it’s all positive. I didn’t see the ads in the papers, but PFT [had a post](http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/28/anthony-adams-praises-the-bears-after-they-cut-him/) that highlighted his comments. > [@](#): > > I really hope they still like/want to develop J’Marcus Webb at LT again. That would be cool. I like Webb as a swing tackle, but not as a starter, at least not yet. Though it’s getting close to the point that you have to just accept that he is what he is. I have a strong hunch that Emery will be going after a LT in FA. That said, I’ll be curious to see what happens with this line with Tice calling plays. You can’t rule out the possibility that Tice was right about these guys’ potential, but that they just needed to be used in a run heavy scheme. > [@EllisDee](#): > > Eli carried the Giants in 2011. Eh, somewhat. I think the WRs were pretty damned excellent as was the pass rush. Both better than anything Peyton ever had. That’s not what I meant though, I was referring to Peyton effectively being the OC, which Eli doesn’t do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215.md?page=11)