# 2012 NFL Pre-Draft Discussion **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 8, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215 "2012-02-08T18:05:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/781 "2012-04-03T18:12:53Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > Question: Have you seen any prospect who looks damn good on a game tape? > > YouTube has a lot of scouting tapes up for this draft. I don’t have a scout’s eye, and while occasionally someone looks impressive in a highlight reel, they don’t look so good when I watch a game tape. > > For instance, Morris Claiborne is viewed --almost universally-- as the top CB, and as a top 6 draft pick. On the highlight tapes he seems to have a great sense of balance, and looks impressive. But in this video of [Morris Claiborne vs Georgia](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWibDk73CAs) he looks very human. He slips and falls. He blatantly grabs a receiver. He gets juked. He gets run over. And he drops a couple of balls that hit his hands, before actually making an interception. I guess it’s good that he was in position for the balls to hit his hands. > > I’ve watched YouTube game tapes on Fletcher Cox, Brockers, Trent Richardson, and several wide receivers. There was never a feeling of watching a man among boys. Blackmon looked okay, but the other top receivers looked like nothing special. > > Have you seen any game tapes that left you impressed? > [@Omniscient](#): > > Agreed on Claiborne. I’m already on record saying he’s going to be a colossal bust. Ditto Dre Kirkpatrick. > > Andrew Luck leaps off the screen for me. He looks like a 3 year NFL veteran playing on Saturdays. RG3 leaps off the screen in a completely different way, he doesn’t look like a NFL player yet but he certainly looks like he’s at a different level than his peers. > > Richardson looks pretty pedestrian to me, but I seem to be in the minority on that one. Defensively there haven’t really been too many guys that really pooped off the screen for me. All in all it was a pretty uninspiring NCAA season this past year and the Title game perfectly reflected that, which is a little weird when you hear all the scouts talking about how amazing this draft class is. > > Blackmon looked like a world beater last year, but he seemed to be a little bit less impressive this year and with his combine numbers being so-so you start to wonder a little about why he was so damned productive. It might just be that the Big-12 really sucked. Speaking of Claiborne, we have a [new benchmark](http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/03/bus-cook-in-shock-about-claiborne-test-score/) for Wonderlic futility. Ladies and gentlemen, a **Four**. LSU! LSU! ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/782 "2012-04-03T18:38:33Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Speaking of Claiborne, we have a [new benchmark](http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/03/bus-cook-in-shock-about-claiborne-test-score/) for Wonderlic futility. > > Ladies and gentlemen, a **Four**. LSU! LSU! I think writing your correct name on the top of the test form gets you a 2. 😉 Wow. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/783 "2012-04-03T18:40:36Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Speaking of Claiborne, we have a [new benchmark](http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/03/bus-cook-in-shock-about-claiborne-test-score/) for Wonderlic futility. > > Ladies and gentlemen, a **Four**. LSU! LSU! How does someone who only gets a 4 on the Wonderlic even get into college? It’s a rhetorical question, BTW. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/784 "2012-04-03T18:45:41Z")
Of course, you should take the Wonderlic with a grain of salt. Ryan Fitzpatrick had one of the highest scores in history and he ended up in Buffalo. [Pat McInally](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_McInally) had a perfect score and spent his career in Cincy. The test is a poor measure of intelligence and judgement. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![TheBoltEater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@TheBoltEater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheBoltEater)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/785 "2012-04-03T18:47:09Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Defensively there haven’t really been too many guys that really **pooped** off the screen for me. Wow, man. When scouting, you really, um… go deep. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/786 "2012-04-03T23:52:11Z")
My enthusiam for researching the draft this year doesn’t extend watching the occasional 5 minute highlight clip, but I think I may like Doug Martin over Trent Richardson. Anyone else? Martin posted roughly the same combine numbers as Ray Rice but with 30 more pounds on him. He’s got that quick change of direction/acceleration that often works better at the pro level than being a bruiser, LeSean McCoy being a prime example. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/787 "2012-04-04T00:52:59Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > My enthusiam for researching the draft this year doesn’t extend watching the occasional 5 minute highlight clip, but I think I may like Doug Martin over Trent Richardson. Anyone else? Not in the least. Richardson is an elite prospect who has shown the ability to succeed even when everyone in the stadium knew he was getting the ball. Martin is a nice prospect and all, but he doesn’t have the top end speed or the success against good defenses. I’m not a fan of Boise State players, especially Boise State running backs. Ian Johnson, who tallied outstanding numbers, didn’t impress me at all going into the NFL. Martin tallied 200 yards rushing … against Colorado State. Against a good team like Georgia, he had 57 yards on 24 carries for 2.4 ypc. He even had mediocre ypc against just average teams, like 3.7 against Toledo, 3.6 against Tulsa, 3.6 against San Diego State. Heck he averaged just .1 ypc more than his backup at Boise State, and he had more than one ypc less than he did last year. That doesn’t scream first round to me. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/788 "2012-04-04T01:42:19Z")
Yeah, you’re right, again, very little research on my part. I just fall in love with RBs who do that 1 step change of direction thing. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/789 "2012-04-04T15:40:18Z")
Should a team be concerned that Claiborne is retarded? I mean, did LSU just always put him in man coverage with basically no reads or handoffs, which might’ve masked his lack of brainpower? Whereas in the NFL, he’ll have to make reads, handoffs, play zone, etc? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/790 "2012-04-04T16:09:34Z")
I have no idea why the NFL administers the Wonderlic or why prospects take it. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/791 "2012-04-04T16:29:57Z")
I at least wonder why they administer the test to everyone. Certain positions, like QB’s, I could see how it might be somewhat applicable, but linemen? DB’s? They may very well be geniuses, or they may be complete morons, but that doesn’t tell me how good of a lineman or DB they are. The skills required to be an effective CB in the NFL are speed and agility _first_, then intelligence, but _football_ intelligence. At its simplest, the job is: find your man and don’t let him catch the ball (man coverage), or run to a spot and if anyone comes into your area, don’t let them catch the ball (zone coverage), and tackle the guy if he does catch the ball. There isn’t a whole lot of math involved in that. Deion Sanders is one of the greatest cornerbacks to ever play the game, and probably _still_ a fine athlete, but I’m pretty sure he’s functionally retarded. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/792 "2012-04-04T16:38:17Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Should a team be concerned that Claiborne is retarded? I mean, did LSU just always put him in man coverage with basically no reads or handoffs, which might’ve masked his lack of brainpower? Whereas in the NFL, he’ll have to make reads, handoffs, play zone, etc? No, he played in a zone about half the time at LSU. The Wonderlic is meaningless, even for quarterbacks. Jeff George scored a 9. On the other hand, I will be clenching quite tightly when the Bucs come up to draft this year. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/793 "2012-04-04T16:53:48Z")
A little about the [Wonderlic and Claiborne](http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/What-you-should-know-about-Claibornes-test-score.html). The short answer: Claiborne has a known learning disability and is known to work and study hard to compensate. Also, the Wonderlic is useless for evaluating draft prospects. ---
**Author:** ![TheBoltEater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@TheBoltEater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheBoltEater)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/794 "2012-04-04T18:29:29Z")
The real question isn’t “Why does the NFL give the Wonderlic test?”, it’s “Why do players _take_ the Wonderlic test?” Every single other event at the combine has any number of players who won’t do it for one reason or another. If you’re dumb, if you have a learning disability, or simply if your agent says so - just don’t take the damn test! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/795 "2012-04-04T18:31:20Z")
I think the question here would be “Why did Claiborne’s agent tell him to take the test?” ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/796 "2012-04-04T19:17:05Z")
I’m going to buck the trend a bit and say that the Wonderlic is probably not as useless as you guys make it out to be and as the Media tends to portray it as. PFT has [this article](http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/04/barber-says-wonderlic-test-doesnt-matter/) on the topic and I agree with some parts of it and disagree with others. This nugget I found pertinent. > [@](#): > > Former Cowboys and Dolphins coach Jimmy Johnson said Tuesday via Twitter that “90% of my misses were because I took a chance on marginal intelligence.” While I think it’s fair to say that the Wonderlic doesn’t really apply to football intelligence and doesn’t really measure you ability to read a defense or block/cover a player I think it would give you a lot of valuable information about that players intangibles. This is pure speculation but I would guess that there’s a correlation between low Wonderlic scores and a players propensity to get into trouble off the field, to be a locker room problem and generally describe their work ethic and attention to detail. There’s obviously room for exceptions and it must be taken in the proper context, but while having good arithmetic, vocabulary and pattern matching ability may have little to do with stopping a pass rusher on Sunday it probably has a lot to do with how you are from Monday through Saturday. NFL teams probably see value in the test and that’s why they continue to use it. I’m sure there’s a difference of opinion on it from team to team just like there is with the 40-yard dash and bench press, but it’s valuable in context. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/797 "2012-04-04T19:17:07Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Name me a QB who played significantly in his first season and sucked, but then after 3 years of “patience” developed into a top QB? Troy Aikman ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/798 "2012-04-04T19:21:29Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I think it would give you a lot of valuable information about that players intangibles. …I’m feeling kind of dubious about this… > [@](#): > > I would guess that there’s a correlation between low Wonderlic scores and a players propensity to get into trouble off the field, to be a locker room problem and generally describe their work ethic and attention to detail. It seems to me we probably don’t need the Wonderlic test to find out who those guys are. They get into trouble in college, have problems with teammates or coaches, or act like prima donnas during the scouting or interview process. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/799 "2012-04-04T19:39:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > …I’m feeling kind of dubious about this… > It seems to me we probably don’t need the Wonderlic test to find out who those guys are. They get into trouble in college, have problems with teammates or coaches, or act like prima donnas during the scouting or interview process. It’s objective. Interviewing college coaches and looking at what a player may or may not have been busted on in his college town is not. Your argument is identical to saying that we don’t need the 40-yard dash to know how fast they are since we have game tape. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215/800 "2012-04-04T20:02:20Z")
Do you think the Wonderlic evaluates those “character” qualities the same way the 40-yard dash measures speed? According to Wikipedia, in the few studies that have been done, there doesn’t appear to be a link between Wonderlic score and performance for players, and it sounds like some teams are actually wary of guys who score too high on the test. As far as the NFL goes I think that puts it pretty firmly in junk science territory. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-nfl-pre-draft-discussion/612215.md?page=41)