# 2012 Tour de France **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 30, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-tour-de-france/626813 "2012-06-30T15:40:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-tour-de-france/626813/121 "2012-07-19T09:55:22Z")
> [@Cumbrian](#): > > I don’t know whether people heard this from earlier in the Tour - apparently it is genuine but I didn’t catch it at the time as I was watching Eurosport as opposed to ITV4’s coverage in the UK. Pretty funny blooper from Paul Sherwen: > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQweo-sqHQ4](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQweo-sqHQ4) 😃 - that is superb. Sherwen rolled out an awesome spoonerism earlier in the Tour but damned if I can recall what it was. I find their patter to be awful in general - beyond parody, but that’s leavened with respect for it being such a hard sport to commentate on. It can be 5 hours of not much happening, and I believe they are working from the same TV footage as we see at home. So sort of understandable that they fall back to a lot of cliches. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-tour-de-france/626813/122 "2012-07-19T10:44:43Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > This is some sort of organized challenge that you’re on your own to complete? Yeah. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Strava, a website that tracks your exercise via workouts uploaded from a gps. They have challenges. This one you have to climb 6881 meters, the same amount of climbing the Tour de France guys do this week. There are prizes but I think most people just do it for the personal challenge. The data has to come from a gps device such as an iPhone with the strava app or dedicated garmin cycling computer. You do it on your own or with others, whatever suits. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-tour-de-france/626813/123 "2012-07-19T10:56:15Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > What do you climb? I can’t remember your precise location. I’m in Adelaide. There are plenty of hills but nothing particularly high so if I want to do lots of climbing I have to do a lot of small climbs. Yesterday I did a 200m climb five times and another steep but short 100m climb plus various other bits and pieces to give me about 1600m over a 90km ride. The highest climb near home would be Mt Lofty at about 400-500m depending on what you call the “top”. It doesn’t compare to the harder climbs on the tour because I’m getting a rest every few hundred vertical meters while those guys just have to grind away for ages. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-tour-de-france/626813/124 "2012-07-19T11:40:01Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > In fairness, dropping a chain is part of racing. Having tacks strewn across the road is not. Tacks strewn across the road isn’t part of racing, true. _But punctures are_ - and Wiggins neutralized the racing when he heard about Evans, before people realized that there was something really weird going on. Anyway - the Tour is officially over for the year. There’s no way Wiggins doesn’t win this, short of some crash or (god forbid) an ‘adverse drug test result’. No Contador, no Andy, Evans looks like he’s slipped a bit. No drama. ---
**Author:** ![polar\_bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ec9cab/32.png) [@polar\_bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/polar_bear)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-tour-de-france/626813/125 "2012-07-19T11:49:55Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Tacks strewn across the road isn’t part of racing, true. > > _But punctures are_ - and Wiggins neutralized the racing when he heard about Evans, before people realized that there was something really weird going on. > > Anyway - the Tour is officially over for the year. There’s no way Wiggins doesn’t win this, short of some crash or (god forbid) an ‘adverse drug test result’. No Contador, no Andy, Evans looks like he’s slipped a bit. No drama. This is not true, Laurens ten Dam of Rabobank (whot would get a flat later on), went to the Sky riders and told them about something being up (because of the many, many flats). As the yellow jersey, Wiggins was the one to do something or not… and I’m glad he did, makes me like him a bit better after his shenanigans in limiting time loss earlier in the tour. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-tour-de-france/626813/126 "2012-07-19T13:20:49Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Anyway - the Tour is officially over for the year. There’s no way Wiggins doesn’t win this, short of some crash or (god forbid) an ‘adverse drug test result’. No Contador, no Andy, Evans looks like he’s slipped a bit. No drama. Yep. Cadel (my fav) is out. I’m hoping BMC lets Tejay go now, to secure the white. It hardly makes sense for him to keep supporting Cadel up the mountains. ---
**Author:** ![Cumbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@Cumbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumbrian)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-tour-de-france/626813/127 "2012-07-19T15:13:18Z")
Froome massively showing Wiggins up here at the end of this stage. Basically yo-yo ing off the front of Wiggins over and over again and then barking at him over his shoulder to tell him to keep up as they try and overhaul Valverde to win the stage. Clearly he is a better climber than Wiggins. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-tour-de-france/626813/128 "2012-07-19T15:37:32Z")
> [@fiddlesticks](#): > > I just meant that its apparently a well-known diuretic, and of course, well-known to be on the banned list. Dosing problem from the team, or Frank being desperate on his own? This along with the Johan/Armstrong stuff may stick a fork in any hope of Radio Shack continuing on as a team. _:::nods in agreement:::_ ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-tour-de-france/626813/129 "2012-07-20T03:32:45Z")
> [@Cumbrian](#): > > Froome massively showing Wiggins up here at the end of this stage. Basically yo-yo ing off the front of Wiggins over and over again and then barking at him over his shoulder to tell him to keep up as they try and overhaul Valverde to win the stage. Clearly he is a better climber than Wiggins. The Yellow Wiggle (Wiggins) says he had lost focus and concentration near the end as he began to realise that none of the serious competition remained and that he’d effectively won the TDF; basically his heart wasn’t in a stage win. Understandable, but he should be wary of counting his chickens. Froome is much more cautious in interviews about considering the race “won”. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-tour-de-france/626813/130 "2012-07-20T03:35:28Z")
It’s funny to think that at the outset one of the reasons I thought that this year Wiggins would win (and Cadel wouldn’t) was that the parcours favoured time triallers (with strong teams) over climbers. Only one and a half mountain top finishes and generally time for a slightly weaker climber to be brought back by his team on the mountain stages where the finishes were past the mountain tops. Turns out Froome and Wiggins are the strongest climbers in the tour this year anyway. They dropped everone yesterday. Who’dathunkit? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-tour-de-france/626813/131 "2012-07-20T04:34:49Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > It’s funny to think that at the outset one of the reasons I thought that this year Wiggins would win (and Cadel wouldn’t) was that the parcours favoured time triallers (with strong teams) over climbers. Only one and a half mountain top finishes and generally time for a slightly weaker climber to be brought back by his team on the mountain stages where the finishes were past the mountain tops. > > Turns out Froome and Wiggins are the strongest climbers in the tour this year anyway. They dropped everone yesterday. Who’dathunkit? What stages were there this year that really proved decisive in terms of the general classification? It seems like nothing at all happened in the mountains. There were attacks by Evans and Nibali, but they never seemed to get more than 100 meters ahead. Wiggins never bothered to try and extend his lead, either. It seemed a bit like a game of tic-tac-toe; the defensive strategy is so well-known and practiced that the result feels like a foregone conclusion. I’m watching it more this year than I have in the past, but I have followed it a bit. Something always happened in the mountains that had a bearing on the result. Is it always like this? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-tour-de-france/626813/132 "2012-07-20T06:05:40Z")
Interesting question, not because the answer is difficult to give but because answering sheds light on the nature of Wiggins win (heh, three stages to go and we are talking as if he’s won). The decisive stages: - The time trials - Lesson the First - Wiggins be an ITT’er better even than the best specialist time triallers in the known world. - The mountain stages (excepting Stage 17) - Lesson the Second - Wiggins and Froome be climbers the equal of all other GC contenders. - Stage 17 - Lesson the Third - Verily, Wiggins and Froome be climbers surpassing all other GC contenders, and indeed all the specialist climbers. Based on Lesson the Third, I would say that Wiggins and Froome were not trying to do more than match the other GC contenders in the earlier mountain stages. Wiggins knew after the first ITT that he could out ITT all other GC contenders by a matter of minutes and there was just no need to stomp on them all in the mountains. Better to keep it in the tank and just rely on the lead he already had; for a number of reasons perhaps. He and Froome took the brakes off yesterday because they had no need to fox any more. Commonly the TdF is a battle between ITT’ers and climbers. The ITT’ers try to hang on in the mountains so they can win in the ITT(s). The climbers try to drop the ITT’ers in the mountains to build themselves a buffer for the ITT’s. This battle creates interest. This year, it’s been dull because the best ITT is also the best climber (leaving Froome, a teammate, to one side). So inevitably he just got himself a lead then maintained it. Yawn. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-tour-de-france/626813/133 "2012-07-20T06:59:26Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > - The time trials - Lesson the First - Wiggins be an ITT’er better even than the best specialist time triallers in the known world. > > - The mountain stages (excepting Stage 17) - Lesson the Second - Wiggins and Froome be climbers the equal of all other GC contenders. > > - Stage 17 - Lesson the Third - Verily, Wiggins and Froome be climbers surpassing all other GC contenders, and indeed all the specialist climbers. > > Based on Lesson the Third, I would say that Wiggins and Froome were not trying to do more than match the other GC contenders in the earlier mountain stages. Wiggins knew after the first ITT that he could out ITT all other GC contenders by a matter of minutes and there was just no need to stomp on them all in the mountains. Better to keep it in the tank and just rely on the lead he already had; for a number of reasons perhaps. He and Froome took the brakes off yesterday because they had no need to fox any more. An interesting analysis, but it seems to be based on the premise that Wiggins knew what was going to happen before it did. Is it a foregone conclusion that because he won the first individual time trial that he’ll win the second? Why didn’t he attack on the early mountain stages to build up more of a time gap? Maybe his rivals were just having a bad day and would outclimb him on later stages. I’m not an expert on the strategy by any means, but it doesn’t seem to offer any real surprises. If one rider or team attacks, everybody seems to know what the other teams will do to counter it. But individual physical performance should be somewhat unpredictable. Yes, Wiggins and Froome have been kicking ass, but when did the other riders know that they’d be able to do that? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-tour-de-france/626813/134 "2012-07-20T07:30:32Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > An interesting analysis, but it seems to be based on the premise that Wiggins knew what was going to happen before it did. Is it a foregone conclusion that because he won the first individual time trial that he’ll win the second? Why didn’t he attack on the early mountain stages to build up more of a time gap? Maybe his rivals were just having a bad day and would outclimb him on later stages. Attacking uses a lot of energy, energy the GC contender himself has to spend. Defending an attack doesn’t cost as much energy because the defenders know the attacker is feeling a bit stuffed from trying to gain a 30 second advantage, so they don’t have to come back as hard, they can afford to wait a bit and see what happens. If Wiggins had attacked on the mountains he might well have been dropped later on. He did struggle on one of the earlier mountain stages after defending an attack, if he’d made an attack himself I think he would’ve struggled more. It is fair for Wiggins to expect to win the last TT based on the results from the first, or at least be very competitive. He would’ve known he was competitive in the mountains and I think he and his team discovered pretty quickly that the pace the Sky team could set up the mountains was fast enough that all the other contenders were riding just below their limit to keep up. The contenders had enough in the gas tank to make an attack but not enough to make it stick. Once Wiggins realised that (probably after the first failed attack by Evans), he knew he just needed to ride a strong tempo up the mountains and wait and see what the others would try. I think every day in the mountains would have cemented that idea in his head particularly when the various contenders tried and failed to attack. In short, the first TT result essentially put him in a position where he didn’t/doesn’t have to do anything other than follow his team mates. As Princhester said, he got into that position because he’s such a strong time trialer and climber. I don’t know that he’s the strongest climber in the field as some of the other dedicated climbers who weren’t in contention for the GC have been burning themselves out fighting over the polkadot jersey, but he doesn’t have to be, he only needs to be a better climber and TTer than the other GC contenders. Edit: It’s not over yet, Wiggins still has to complete the Tour, he can’t afford to have a bad day while one of the other guys has a really good day. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-tour-de-france/626813/135 "2012-07-20T09:36:51Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > An interesting analysis, but it seems to be based on the premise that Wiggins knew what was going to happen before it did. Well, Wiggins knew after the Dauphine and TdF first ITT that he was a heap stronger than any other GC contender in the ITT. Past experience is that this is a very, very good indicator of what was going to happen in the second TdF ITT. And what Wiggins \*didn’t \*know for sure was what the others were going to be able to do on the climbs. I think every commentator’s analysis pre-race (and even after the first few climbs) was that Nibali and Evans had a real chance of attacking Wiggins and making it stick in the mountains. There is no reason to think Wiggins knew for certain any different. If he attacks and Nibali and Evans can hold his wheel, and then he blows up, he loses time. This is much more likely than him losing time in the ITT. So he just plays it conservative in the mountains. > [@Richard Pearse\[/quote](#): > > I don’t know that he’s the strongest climber in the field as some of the other dedicated climbers who weren’t in contention for the GC have been burning themselves out fighting over the polkadot jersey I don’t know that the GC bunch have been going over the climbs any slower than those fighting it out for the polka dot jersey: the latter have generally only made it over the climbs before the GC bunch because they have been in breakaways at the head of the field. Often the GC bunch is _gaining_ time on the lead climbers on the climbs. That is, they are going up the climbs faster than the polka dot contenders. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-tour-de-france/626813/136 "2012-07-20T10:26:05Z")
> [@polar\_bear](#): > > This is not true, Laurens ten Dam of Rabobank (whot would get a flat later on), went to the Sky riders and told them about something being up (because of the many, many flats). As the yellow jersey, Wiggins was the one to do something or not… and I’m glad he did, makes me like him a bit better after his shenanigans in limiting time loss earlier in the tour. Hmm - I would have sworn it was fairly quickly after Evans punctured; thanks for clarifying. Either way, he earned some points for that, and for doing a lead-out for his teammate in the earlier stage. But man, the Tour this year just hasn’t been all that…exciting. Guess I wouldn’t say ‘boring’, because there have been some interesting stages here and there and some nice stories (Sagan, Voeckler). But the GC this year was going to be about Wiggins as the pretty strong favorite, with challenges from Evans, Andy and possily Frank Schleck, Nibali, and maybe some outside chances of challenges from the likes of Sanchez / Menchov / Hesjedal /uber-doped up Leipheimer. Andy couldn’t even start the race. Frank started, then had to quit (if he’s doing drugs…he really needs to up the dosage), Evans clearly doesn’t have the legs this year to keep up with Wiggins, let alone attack, and Nibali can climb a bit but not as good as Wiggins, and the rest of the bunch were non-starters after losing so much time to Wiggins in the ITT. Here’s looking forward to next year with hopefully Andy, Alberto, Bradly and Froome all in top form and ready to do battle. There’s no way Wiggins and Froome can be on the same team next year, right? And yes, I realize I’m making it sound like a Wiggins win is a foregone conclusion…but let’s be honest, it is a foregone conclusion. If Wiggins manages to lose this Tour without crashing or failing a drug test I’ll eat my keyboard. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-tour-de-france/626813/137 "2012-07-20T11:26:10Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I don’t know that the GC bunch have been going over the climbs any slower than those fighting it out for the polka dot jersey: the latter have generally only made it over the climbs before the GC bunch because they have been in breakaways at the head of the field. Often the GC bunch is _gaining_ time on the lead climbers on the climbs. That is, they are going up the climbs faster than the polka dot contenders. It’s impossible to tell really because the guys in the breakaway have been fighting their own race. They’re burning more fuel getting into the breakaway and they’re riding much more aggressively against each other. ---
**Author:** ![Cumbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@Cumbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumbrian)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-tour-de-france/626813/138 "2012-07-20T14:24:23Z")
Cavendish’s win today - I watched it and I’m still amazed at what he did. A much longer sprint than he usually does and he won by an absolute mile. Going to be interesting to see if Team Sky + David Millar can control the Olympic Road Race well enough to give Cavendish a chance there (and whether Cav can avoid being dropped on one of the 10 times around Box Hill). ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-tour-de-france/626813/139 "2012-07-20T15:58:52Z")
That was phenomenal, particularly the overhead shot - Cav with the afterburners up to eleven. Shaping up brilliantly for the Olympic race as you say - if Cav’s there at the end then everyone’s racing for silver. Should precipitate plenty of moves to shake him off during the course. I’ve not ridden up box hill myself - I understand it’s basically a bump in the road compared to the stuff we’ve seen in the Tour. Given the speed they’ll be taking it on, though, might be enough to enforce a selection on the latter laps. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-tour-de-france/626813/140 "2012-07-20T16:01:43Z")
> [@Cumbrian](#): > > Cavendish’s win today - I watched it and I’m still amazed at what he did. A much longer sprint than he usually does and he won by an absolute mile. Yeah, that was a textbook lead-out by Team Sky today, and executed to perfection - catching the breakway in, what, the final 100 meters? I was struck by Cav’s explosivity - you could see him spooling-up behind Sanchez and I knew it was all but over. It was a heck of a sprint by Cavendish - hats off to him and his team. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-tour-de-france/626813.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2012-tour-de-france/626813.md?page=8)