# 2013 MLB Hall of Fame Ballot (let the fireworks begin) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 27, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2013-mlb-hall-of-fame-ballot-let-the-fireworks-begin/642264 "2012-11-27T14:48:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2013-mlb-hall-of-fame-ballot-let-the-fireworks-begin/642264/101 "2012-12-01T22:56:23Z")
> [@echo7tango](#): > > Let’s not forget that baseball’s owners, fans and MLB’s leadership structure were not only complicit but also encouraging of PED use. This is true (or at least it’s broadly true, I don’t know about the “encouraging”) part. But- > [@](#): > > Don’t punish Bonds and Clemens for that. They’re being punished for their own actions, not for the sins of the sport of baseball. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2013-mlb-hall-of-fame-ballot-let-the-fireworks-begin/642264/102 "2012-12-01T23:42:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > They’re being punished for their own actions, not for the sins of the sport of baseball. The “punishment”, per se, would indeed include not just that for their own actions but also that for their involvement in a ‘system’ defined by baseball allowing if not encouraging PED use, not to mention the fans and media adoration for increased performance. We’re all guilty to some extent. We’re all dirty to some extent. Should Bonds and Clemens be punished for that? ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Jocko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uncle_jocko/32/2932_2.png) [@Uncle\_Jocko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Jocko)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2013-mlb-hall-of-fame-ballot-let-the-fireworks-begin/642264/103 "2012-12-02T01:13:19Z")
Can’t we just punish them for being world-class jerks instead? (And yes, I know jerkiness is not an automatic disqualifier for the HoF. But I cannot stand Barry BigHead Bonds, and would not mind a Hall of Fame without him. Hall of Infamy, sure.) ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2013-mlb-hall-of-fame-ballot-let-the-fireworks-begin/642264/104 "2012-12-03T16:08:26Z")
As a baseball fan, I accept zero blame for players using PEDs. They knew what they were doing was wrong but they thought they’d get away with it. I don’t know what was accepted or encouraged, but those guys can be held accountable for their own actions. If their only “punishment” is not getting into the HOF, I’d say they’re getting off pretty easy. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2013-mlb-hall-of-fame-ballot-let-the-fireworks-begin/642264/105 "2012-12-03T22:53:33Z")
> [@echo7tango](#): > > …not to mention the fans and media adoration for increased performance. We’re all guilty to some extent. Bullshit. I appreciate (not adore) increased performance but not the Melky Cabrera way. If I cheered for him last season it was without the knowledge he was using PEDs. Now knowing that he did, I want him punished appropriately and to come back clean. I will enjoy watching him play (and watching baseball) the same. [QUOTE=Barkis is Willin’] If their only “punishment” is not getting into the HOF, I’d say they’re getting off pretty easy. [/QUOTE] Yep. The players who use illicit PEDs are committing felonies, not just breaking MLB policy. Unfortunately, even when they admit it, it’s impossible to prosecute. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2013-mlb-hall-of-fame-ballot-let-the-fireworks-begin/642264/106 "2012-12-03T23:04:03Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Wow…as I go down the list, it’s amazing how many names end up with a “nope, 'roid monkey” dismissal from me. > > I’m still hoping to see Dale Murphy make it… It’s amazing that they wasted ink putting Royce Clayton on the ballot. His career season high in runs scored and hits came in his only season in Mile High Stadium, the legal performance enhancer. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2013-mlb-hall-of-fame-ballot-let-the-fireworks-begin/642264/107 "2012-12-03T23:13:42Z")
Err, I mean Coors Field. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2013-mlb-hall-of-fame-ballot-let-the-fireworks-begin/642264/108 "2012-12-03T23:18:28Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > Yep. The players who use illicit PEDs are committing felonies, not just breaking MLB policy. Unfortunately, even when they admit it, it’s impossible to prosecute. And this is the heart of the problem. There are only three ways to have proof that a player used PEDs - positive tests (not applicable prior to MLB instituting testing), court cases (almost impossible to get a conviction), and confession. So where are you drawing the line? Any of the three? Well that doesn’t include Clemens. Strong suspicion? Vague hearsay? Or do you just throw out the entire decade or so? As long as players without anything close to evidence are being smeared (Bagwell, for example), I’ll continue to support including everybody with the credentials on the field. Better to not punish an innocent man and let known cheaters join the other known cheaters in the HoF. And I guarantee you this - there are players currently in the Hall of Fame that used steroids. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2013-mlb-hall-of-fame-ballot-let-the-fireworks-begin/642264/109 "2012-12-03T23:31:31Z")
Voted for Bagwell, Piazza, Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Biggio, and Sosa. But I think this poll proves only one thing: **Oredigger77** is obviously related to Ryan Klesko. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2013-mlb-hall-of-fame-ballot-let-the-fireworks-begin/642264/110 "2012-12-03T23:42:21Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > And this is the heart of the problem. There are only three ways to have proof that a player used PEDs - positive tests (not applicable prior to MLB instituting testing), court cases (almost impossible to get a conviction), and confession. > > So where are you drawing the line? Any of the three? Well that doesn’t include Clemens. Strong suspicion? Vague hearsay? Or do you just throw out the entire decade or so? > > As long as players without anything close to evidence are being smeared (Bagwell, for example), I’ll continue to support including everybody with the credentials on the field. Better to not punish an innocent man and let known cheaters join the other known cheaters in the HoF. > > And I guarantee you this - there are players currently in the Hall of Fame that used steroids. I agree. In responding to **Barkis is Willin’** , I was referring to those who’ve admitted it (Palmeiro, Canseco, etc.). I don’t think you can keep Clemens out because, performance-wise, he deserves to be in and there is no admission or empirical evidence he used PEDs. But—Devil’s advocate—it’s difficult to divine the reason Brian McNamee claimed he gave Clemens PEDs if he didn’t. So I can at least understand the opponent’s argument even if I don’t agree with it. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2013-mlb-hall-of-fame-ballot-let-the-fireworks-begin/642264/111 "2012-12-03T23:44:58Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Voted for Bagwell, Piazza, Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Biggio, and Sosa. But I think this poll proves only one thing: > > **Oredigger77** is obviously related to Ryan Klesko. Or _is_ Ryan Klesko. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2013-mlb-hall-of-fame-ballot-let-the-fireworks-begin/642264/112 "2012-12-04T00:59:27Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > It’s amazing that they wasted ink putting Royce Clayton on the ballot. The standard for inclusion is simply that a player be eligible and was a regular player for a substantial period of time. It is not the job of the screening committee to decide if Royce Clayton was a Hall of Famer; it’s basically just their job to decide if Royce Clayton was a regular major league ballplayer who was in the big leagues for ten years. He was. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2013-mlb-hall-of-fame-ballot-let-the-fireworks-begin/642264/113 "2012-12-04T01:32:10Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > Or _is_ Ryan Klesko. Close, I just met him when I was a kid and have fond memories of watching him play. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2013-mlb-hall-of-fame-ballot-let-the-fireworks-begin/642264/114 "2012-12-04T04:00:02Z")
I’m a very small Hall guy so I only voted for Piazza and Bagwell. I’m snubbing Bonds and Clemens for the steroids. McGwire wouldn’t make it even if he was clean. I didn’t vote for Schilling for him being a world class ass. Yeah, Ty Cobb was an ass, but Schilling isn’t Cobb. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2013-mlb-hall-of-fame-ballot-let-the-fireworks-begin/642264/115 "2012-12-04T14:35:04Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > Yep. The players who use illicit PEDs are committing felonies, not just breaking MLB policy. Unfortunately, even when they admit it, it’s impossible to prosecute. I suppose these types of decisions are easy if you are willing to make blanket statements of questionable truth, but unfortunately this is an issue with large swaths of gray shades. Is using PEDS a felony? Well that depends on where was used, where it was acquired, and what precisely the substance was. Generally in the U.S. selling steroids is a felony, but possession/using may or may not be. Plenty of drugs were bought in other countries where it is legal though. If a player went to another country and took steroids there legally, would that be okay? What if a player had a doctor’s note making it legal in the good old US of A? Besides is could have been charged with a felony really any sort of standard? I’m pretty sure Miguel Cabrera could have been charged a felony at some point during his drunk driving escapades (an activity I would consider way more dangerous then taking steroids) Are we keeping him out of the hall? How about Kirby Puckett? Can we kick him out? ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2013-mlb-hall-of-fame-ballot-let-the-fireworks-begin/642264/116 "2012-12-04T14:36:10Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > I’m a very small Hall guy so I only voted for Piazza and Bagwell. I’m snubbing Bonds and Clemens for the steroids. McGwire wouldn’t make it even if he was clean. I didn’t vote for Schilling for him being a world class ass. Yeah, Ty Cobb was an ass, but Schilling isn’t Cobb. Can I ask what exactly Biggio has done to not be deserving? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2013-mlb-hall-of-fame-ballot-let-the-fireworks-begin/642264/117 "2012-12-04T17:59:49Z")
> [@echo7tango](#): > > From [baseball-reference.com](http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/First_Ballot_Hall_of_Famer), these are the 1BHOF’ers (pardon the formatting). Apparently no one in the history of baseball has ever been elected unanimously. Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2013-mlb-hall-of-fame-ballot-let-the-fireworks-begin/642264/118 "2012-12-04T18:31:39Z")
**dale** -Is Schilling’s politics what makes him “an ass”? ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2013-mlb-hall-of-fame-ballot-let-the-fireworks-begin/642264/119 "2012-12-04T19:01:24Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > **dale** -Is Schilling’s politics what makes him “an ass”? Even if you agree with his politics, he also conned the state of Rhode Island out of millions to setup a doomed video game company. I always liked him as a player, but he wasn’t a particularly likeable person off-the-field. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2013-mlb-hall-of-fame-ballot-let-the-fireworks-begin/642264/120 "2012-12-04T19:03:40Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > **dale** -Is Schilling’s politics what makes him “an ass”? He’s acted like an ass in the wake of his video game studio going under, that’s for sure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2013-mlb-hall-of-fame-ballot-let-the-fireworks-begin/642264.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2013-mlb-hall-of-fame-ballot-let-the-fireworks-begin/642264.md?page=7)