# 2015 Hugo Award Nominees **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 6, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968 "2015-04-06T16:41:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/221 "2015-08-25T19:00:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This doesn’t change anything. Wright’s objection was ridiculous and bigoted. Exactly, and it’s another example of him trying to avoid the main point by nitpicking meaningless details. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/222 "2015-08-25T19:19:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I looked at Rick’s link to the “nominations for the slate” thread. There are actually some pretty decent suggestions–I remember seeing “Skin Game” on there, for instance. . . . Jim Butcher has wisely not said a word about the slate. Neither has anyone related to Guardians of the Galaxy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/223 "2015-08-25T19:44:53Z")
> [@emarkp](#): > > Nonsense. It was a retread of “if you give a mouse a cookie”. Furthermore, it had no narrative, thus not qualifying as a “story”. I’m gonna make a guess: 1. You’ve not read “Give a Mouse a Cookie” in a long time; and 2. You’ve not read a story in a long time. There’s a VERY superficial semblance between Dinosaur in mouse, inasmuch as each story has an “if then” motif. However, they’re used in different ways. In Mouse, it’s used to suggest the mouse will continue to take advantage of the reader. In Dinosaur, it’s used to introduce increasingly baroque flights of fancy. As for stories, can you really not find the narrative? SPOILER ALERT! A paleontologist was beat up by five drunken assholes and has slipped into a possibly irreversible coma. His fiancee sits by his bed and spins a tale of fantasy to tell him in which he’s a dinosaur, they sing together and become famous, and he marries another, but she is still happy because he is happy; the fantasy she spins ends in the same fight against five drunken assholes, only in her fantasy version of events her fiancee eats the attackers instead of dying. It’s not told in a strictly sequential method, but the narrative is clearly there. You don’t have to like it. But the reasons you gave for not liking it are false. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/224 "2015-08-25T19:53:16Z")
> [@emarkp](#): > > Nonsense. It was a retread of “if you give a mouse a cookie”. Furthermore, it had no narrative, thus not qualifying as a “story”. How can a retread of _If You Give a Mouse a Cookie_ not have a narrative? It’s 100% narrative! ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/225 "2015-08-25T20:20:54Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > How can a retread of _If You Give a Mouse a Cookie_ not have a narrative? It’s 100% narrative! Ooh, good point. I apologize for denigrating Cookie. I meant the basic “lyrical” structure, but you’re right that the Mouse has much that the Dinosaur does not. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/226 "2015-08-25T20:22:11Z")
> [@emarkp](#): > > Ooh, good point. I apologize for denigrating Cookie. I meant the basic “lyrical” structure, but you’re right that the Mouse has much that the Dinosaur does not. See, this is the sort of nonsense that just leads to eyerolls. You’re factually wrong about the lack of a narrative. Your snark is based on ignorance, and the more you double down on it, the sillier it gets. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/227 "2015-08-25T20:26:39Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m gonna make a guess: > There’s a VERY superficial semblance between Dinosaur in mouse, inasmuch as each story has an “if then” motif. Yep, it was wrong to make the comparison. Cookie is far better. > [@](#): > > As for stories, can you really not find the narrative? SPOILER ALERT! That’s the premise and the rambling. It’s utter garbage, and was the breaking point for a lot of the critics of the current SFWA parade of nonsense. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I certainly wouldn’t have voted for Skin Game for best novel that year, because there were so many books that were so much better. But it’s a really fun book, and wouldn’t be a bad nomination at all. And yet “No Award” placed above it. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/228 "2015-08-25T20:28:10Z")
> [@emarkp](#): > > Ooh, good point. I apologize for denigrating Cookie. I meant the basic “lyrical” structure, but you’re right that the Mouse has much that the Dinosaur does not. I’ve never read the story in question, but I’ll admit that your attack on it isn’t compelling. I’m not reading your posts and thinking “this guy is obviously a critical and thoughtful reader.” I’m thinking “these posts seem childish and ill-argued.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/229 "2015-08-25T21:07:22Z")
> [@emarkp](#): > > Yep, it was wrong to make the comparison. Cookie is far better. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > That’s the premise and the rambling. Nonlinear structure != rambling. It’s a very deliberate structure with a deliberate unfolding of the plot. Your inability to follow it is not the story’s fault. > [@](#): > > It’s utter garbage, and was the breaking point for a lot of the critics of the current SFWA parade of nonsense. This says more about those critics than it does about the story. > [@](#): > > And yet “No Award” placed above it. Which sucks for Butcher. It’s reasonable to say that it’s not Hugo-worthy, just as I think it’s reasonable to say that nominating it is legit. The punch-bowl-shitters should realize that their antics are hurting authors who aren’t part of their movement, though, and should decide if that’s really what they want to do. Again: recommend books. Recommend Skin Game if you want. But don’t go for a monolithic slate that tries to overwhelm everyone else’s tastes, and expect good feelings going forward. Don’t shit in the punch bowl and get sad when people won’t drink it. **Edit** : **jsgoddess** , the Dinosaur story is [here](http://www.apex-magazine.com/if-you-were-a-dinosaur-my-love/). It’s fairly short and a good read (as I’m sure you can tell by the absurd attacks it faces). When you read it and you read about the five attackers, you’ll probably understand better the real reason for its critics. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/230 "2015-08-25T21:34:18Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > **Edit** : **jsgoddess** , the Dinosaur story is [here](http://www.apex-magazine.com/if-you-were-a-dinosaur-my-love/). It’s fairly short and a good read (as I’m sure you can tell by the absurd attacks it faces). When you read it and you read about the five attackers, you’ll probably understand better the real reason for its critics. FWIW, while I’m with you on the general issue that Whipped & Rabid Puppies suck, I hated…HATED…the story. And not for any reason beyond the fact that it was non-SFnal (or fantasy. Non-Genre). Yeah, the woman was daydreaming about the dinosaur, but that’s it. It started nowhere, ended nowhere and nothing actually happened but a daydream told poorly. The writing was clumsy and…un-lyrical. Zelazny or Bradbury at their best might, with another few thousand words, have been able to pull something worthwhile out of it (maybe) but that didn’t happen and instead we got a “prose poem” (or whatever the current term for it is). My main point for posting the above is that it’s possible to hate the story and yet not be a Whipped or Rabid Puppy. How will JSGoddess feel after reading it? Will she side with me…or you? Only time (and JSGoddess) will tell. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/231 "2015-08-25T21:42:35Z")
Swirsky’s story is a poem. Read it as such and it should be obvious. It did not win the Hugo Award, but it did win the Nebula Award. The reason is also obvious. I’ve been in a number of writer’s groups and writer’s workshops. If anybody had put that story out to be read, the rest of the writers would be genuflecting, singing hosannas, kissing her feet, and contemplating giving up fiction for a life as a computer programmer. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/232 "2015-08-25T21:48:06Z")
First: I love poetry, so be warned. Second: I couldn’t get the link to work. I tried googling and couldn’t get those links to work either. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/233 "2015-08-25T21:58:29Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I’ve never read the story in question, but I’ll admit that your attack on it isn’t compelling. I’m not reading your posts and thinking “this guy is obviously a critical and thoughtful reader.” I’m thinking “these posts seem childish and ill-argued.” Please then, [go and read it](http://www.apex-magazine.com/if-you-were-a-dinosaur-my-love/) and form your own opinion. It’s actually shorter than most of these posts. ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/234 "2015-08-25T22:20:03Z")
I read ‘Dinosaur’ when it was first posted earlier in the thread and I have to admit on first reading it I dismissed it as drivel. On a second (and third) reading after looking at the comments by **LHoD** , **Fenris** & **Exapno Mapcase** - I think it’s a _lot_ better than the Puppies give it credit for. There are a few passages that have a lot of depth to their ideas. I still don’t think it was that well written and I agree with a lot of what **Fenris** said - it’s certainly _ **a** _ fantasy, though I’m not sure how or where that makes it fit within _Fantasy_ as a genre (which could be an interesting discussion for another thread). > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > When you read it and you read about the five attackers, you’ll probably understand better the real reason for its critics. I suspect this is very true in some of the circles that the criticism is coming from. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/235 "2015-08-25T22:23:40Z")
> [@Reno\_Nevada](#): > > The Hugos were sinking into…no, the Hugos have always been irrelevant. They are party favors, and nobody except the party attendees cared about them at all, and why should anyone? Really? I never paid much attention to the _process_ behind them, but I did notice if a book or story I was looking at had a Hugo (or Nebula) ribbon on it. I bought some things because of them, read some things because of them, maybe paid more attention to some things, knowing that some people who took SF seriously had seen something there. > [@Reno\_Nevada](#): > > See, [the Puppies] wanted to ruin the party, so they broke in and started throwing feces around. However, the party wasn’t ruined. More people attended Sasquan than any other Worldcon ever. More people voted for the Hugos than ever voted before. Next year there will probably be more Hugo nominations than there have ever been ever. And that is great. > …now there are stories on AV Club and NPR, we are talking about them on the SDMB, and a bunch of young people, gays, transgendered, people of color, all kinds of people showed up to freshen the stagnant pond of fandom. This does sound good, though. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/236 "2015-08-25T22:25:12Z")
Wow. I just read the comments on that story. They start in March 2013 and run overwhelmingly positive, like 90% gushing. Until Groundhog Day 2015. Then the haters come in, **en masse**. I wonder what happened around February 2015? Hmm? Hmm? Edit: as for the critics identifying too heavily with the attackers, that shows up pretty clearly in the comments. Some of the critics are livid that the author and other socialists dislike working-class people, while others suggest in oh-so-coy language that really it’d be a bunch of black guys who’d commit the crime. Yeah, I think it’s clear where the hate is coming from. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/237 "2015-08-25T22:30:18Z")
I read it. (The links finally worked.) Full disclosure: I have sat and waited by many a hospital bed, wondering if I would become a sudden widow. I’m also a poet. And I love dinosaurs. I think it’s clearly a poem, as Exapno Mapcase points out. And it strikes me as quite affecting. There is a great (intentional, I assume) irony in its central conceit, given what happened to the dinosaurs: > [@](#): > > If you were a dinosaur, my love, then nothing could break you, and if nothing could break you, then nothing could break me. I think it’s quite beautiful, has a clear structure, and tells a story. A narrative prose poem. It’s definitely worth reading. I’m not sure that it’s something I would categorize as sf or fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/238 "2015-08-25T22:35:10Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > It’s definitely worth reading. I’m not sure that it’s something I would categorize as sf or fantasy. I get that. At the same time, for years I devoured **The Year’s Best Fantasy and Horror** anthologies, edited by Ellen Datlow and Terri Windling, in large part because of the wide net they cast in selecting stories and poems. When I read something that uses some of the tropes of SF/F in a way I’ve not seen before, I’m delighted. It’s really fun for me. Some people don’t like that. That’s cool. But me, I’d much rather cast a very wide net in what I welcome into our genre. This story requires a wide net, but that’s fine by me. ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/239 "2015-08-25T22:40:33Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Wow. I just read the comments on that story. They start in March 2013 and run overwhelmingly positive, like 90% gushing. > > Until Groundhog Day 2015. Then the haters come in, **en masse**. > > I wonder what happened around February 2015? Hmm? Hmm? > > Edit: as for the critics identifying too heavily with the attackers, that shows up pretty clearly in the comments. Some of the critics are livid that the author and other socialists dislike working-class people, while others suggest in oh-so-coy language that really it’d be a bunch of black guys who’d commit the crime. > > Yeah, I think it’s clear where the hate is coming from. Kind of funny seeing the _If You Give a Mouse a Cookie_ meme showing up so heavily in the comments there and in this thread. It really comes across as a sneering, superficial way to dismiss the work without making any effort to think about it. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2015, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/240 "2015-08-25T22:43:15Z")
> [@Battle\_Pope](#): > > Kind of funny seeing the _If You Give a Mouse a Cookie_ meme showing up so heavily in the comments there and in this thread. It really comes across as a sneering, superficial way to dismiss the work without making any effort to think about it. I’ve never read that actual book (the text is on Wikipedia), but there was an Ayn Rand parody recently and I started a thread in CS about if that book were written by someone else. So I feel like I know that book inside and out! > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Some people don’t like that. That’s cool. But me, I’d much rather cast a very wide net in what I welcome into our genre. This story requires a wide net, but that’s fine by me. You sound like me when I’m talking about poetry. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968.md?page=13)