# 2015 Hugo Award Nominees **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 6, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968 "2015-04-06T16:41:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/81 "2015-04-11T12:49:46Z")
> [@emarkp](#): > > Nope. Torgerson has consistently presented Sad Puppies 3 as putting quality on the ballot by authors who have been overlooked or would be expected to be overlooked, because of either politics or ingroup exclusion. The SP slate had women, minorities, etc. on it. And Torgerson and others were libeled by well ove ra dozen news outlets. > > Fighting ignorance sure is taking longer than we thought. It’s rather amazing how much more effort people can spend misconstruing words rather than simply reading the plain meaning. Goddamn. I read the first third or so of that screed. Where Martin describes history using specific facts and figures, Correia’s rant is half self-pity, half demonizing opponents, and all fact-free. Some examples: > [@](#): > > he term SJW is way bigger than Sad Puppies, and predates Sad Puppies, and has entered the general lexicon of easily half our nation, but probably mostly the red state tired of getting yelled at half. We use the term SJW because it is far easier than typing out Perpetually Outraged, Searching For Offense, Quick to Accuse Racism/Sexism/Homophobia/Privilege/Patriarchy, Holier Than Thou, Politics Before Fun, Unholy Cross Between Communists and Puritans, Twitter Lynch Mob Forming, Career Sabotaging, Social Justice Crusaders. > > The term has stuck, and shows up everywhere in America. Comet Guy with his “offensive” shirt did more to popularize the term SJW than anything my people ever did. It is here to stay. > … > Side note, I’m not racist, sexist, or homophobic, but if that crowd (I’ll talk about the derogatory label my side uses that you don’t like in a minute) decides you are the enemy, they will smear you with those labels, regardless of the evidence. > … > You know what I found? WorldCon voters angry that a right-wing Republican (actually I’m a libertarian) who owned a gun store (gasp) was nominated for the prestigious Campbell. This is terrible. Did you know he did lobbying for gun rights! It’s right there on his hateful blog of hatey hate hate! He’s awful. He’s a bad person. He’s a Mormon! What! Another damned Mormon! Oh no, there are two Mormons up for the Campbell? I bet Larry Correia hates women and gays. He’s probably a racist too. Did you know he’s part of the evil military industrial complex? What a jerk. How anyone finds this dude convincing, or even worth taking seriously, is beyond me. What a tool. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/82 "2015-04-11T16:51:02Z")
This is exactly why a cursory examination of the issue makes the entire Sad Puppies side look more sympathetic than they really are. It’s entirely fair to say that the Hugo Awards shouldn’t be dominated by a small group sharing a narrow point of view. If Sad Puppies limited themselves strictly to that, great. But that’s not what they’re doing. They’re whining that the Hugos aren’t dominated by **their** small group sharing a narrow point of view by claiming it’s the “other side” (which doesn’t even friggin’ exist) doing it first. It’s conservative persecution syndrome as applied to SF writers. I’d expect something about “real SF fans” just like talk about “the real Americans”, except that’s exactly what’s going on without using those explicit words. And, as now repeatedly shown in the thread and elsewhere on the interwebs, it’s not even accurate. There’s remarkable diversity in Hugo nominees and winners. They’re not all “message” fiction at all. Nor is it some small cabal of like minded liberal fans pushing a particular agenda. Too many NY bestselling writers for that. It’s not even the pot calling the kettle black. There was never a kettle in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/83 "2015-04-11T18:04:35Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > His manifesto, such as it is, is that science fiction has to stick with space opera and adventure, and any attempt to do anything more is wrong. It is turning it from the literature of ideas to the literature of same old ideas; the literature of the future to the literature of the past; the literature of the imagination to the literature for the unimaginative. I admit I don’t know much about this issue, or any of the people involved, beyond what I’ve read here and at GRRM’s blog. But the rant that you quoted from Torgerson, reminds me of nothing so much as myself when I first got to college as an English major, and began to really study literature academically. I had that same sort of reaction–but why do we have to examine the story for subtext and symbolism and stuff? Why do have to search for hidden meanings? Why can’t we just read the story and enjoy it? Why can’t we just read things for fun? Isn’t that enough? Thankfully, I’ve grown past that first reaction. But that’s what strikes me about what Torgerson is saying there–that it’s a very juvenile way of looking at fiction. It’s a way of reading that insists that the immediate, surface meaning of a story is all there is, all there should be. That deeper themes, subtextual meanings, symbols and metaphors, are things to be suspicious of and ultimately to reject. For people who profess to be professional writers, I find that an odd stance to take. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/84 "2015-04-11T18:33:15Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Frankly, I’m more concerned about the N.K. Jemisin situation: if she’s getting death threats, internet-exposed, etc (and I have no reason to assume she’s not), that’s much more troubling. What is the NK Jemisin situation? I love her books and feel all protective and stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/85 "2015-04-11T19:35:40Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > What is the NK Jemisin situation? I love her books and feel all protective and stuff. > **[Wiscon 38 Guest of Honor Speech - Epiphany 2.0](https://nkjemisin.com/2014/05/wiscon-38-guest-of-honor-speech/#sthash.cm96N4Wc.dpuf)** > > \[ETA 3/28/14: Added markup; text is still the same. Also, please note a discussion here about a line in the Delany quote that concerned some people.\] Thanks to all the WisCon volunteers, members, and other supporters, who have given me the... Here ya go. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/86 "2015-04-11T20:11:18Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > \His manifesto, such as it is, is that science fiction has to stick with space opera and adventure, and any attempt to do anything more is wrong. Y’know, the Grand Old Man of the kind of planetary romance Torgerson likes was Edgar Rice Burroughs – who worked a **lot** of sociopolitical commentary into his Barsoom novels. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/87 "2015-04-11T20:16:07Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > [http://nkjemisin.com/2014/05/wiscon-38-guest-of-honor-speech/#sthash.cm96N4Wc.dpuf](http://nkjemisin.com/2014/05/wiscon-38-guest-of-honor-speech/#sthash.cm96N4Wc.dpuf) > Here ya go. 🙂 My primary reaction to Gamergate was astonishment that anyone could be so emotionally invested in gaming as to issue death threats over anything having to do with it. That astonishment is now topped. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/88 "2015-04-11T21:35:32Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > [http://nkjemisin.com/2014/05/wiscon-38-guest-of-honor-speech/#sthash.cm96N4Wc.dpuf](http://nkjemisin.com/2014/05/wiscon-38-guest-of-honor-speech/#sthash.cm96N4Wc.dpuf) > Here ya go. 🙂 Thank you! On the larger Hugo question: One thing I don’t understand is the attempt to keep the Sad Puppies from being lumped in with the Rabid Puppies, when it seems like the former was created from the impetus of the Beale/Vox Day persona, even if not by him personally. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/89 "2015-04-11T22:00:07Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > On the larger Hugo question: One thing I don’t understand is the attempt to keep the Sad Puppies from being lumped in with the Rabid Puppies, I agree. But as with everything in this mess, there’s a spectrum of beliefs involved. Some people earnestly believe it’s about literary vs accessible fiction (regardless of facts). If I were one of those, I certainly wouldn’t want to be lumped together with the explicitly sexist/racist/homophobic/etc trolls that are the most vocal. I’m not terribly sympathetic to this viewpoint. It’s a distinction with no functional difference, as far as I’m concerned. Torgesen is trying to paint himself more in this light, but it doesn’t really hold together. There are plenty of people out there (some in this thread even) who’ve knocked plenty of holes in that. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Y’know, the Grand Old Man of the kind of planetary romance Torgerson likes was Edgar Rice Burroughs – who worked a **lot** of sociopolitical commentary into his Barsoom novels. Meh. Pretty much every example of space opera does, to a greater or less extent. He’s not bothered by sociopolitical commentary he agrees with. That’s the “default” in his mind and he thinks what all SF was and should be and what SF never actually was. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/90 "2015-04-11T23:04:39Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > I agree. > > But as with everything in this mess, there’s a spectrum of beliefs involved. > > Some people earnestly believe it’s about literary vs accessible fiction (regardless of facts). If I were one of those, I certainly wouldn’t want to be lumped together with the explicitly sexist/racist/homophobic/etc trolls that are the most vocal. I’m not terribly sympathetic to this viewpoint. It’s a distinction with no functional difference, as far as I’m concerned. I’m in the “accessible” fiction camp and I agree with him that the last two or three years there’s been a lean towards the lit-crit type. But there was the same drift in the late '60s, early '70s. This too shall pass. (That said, that crappy “dinosaur” word-salad poem-thing that Chuck linked to, upthread was unmitigated donkey-poop.) > [@](#): > > Meh. Pretty much every example of space opera does, to a greater or less extent. He’s not bothered by sociopolitical commentary he agrees with. That’s the “default” in his mind and he thinks what all SF was and should be and what SF never actually was. Nah–There’s clearly a difference between “message fiction” and “sociopolitical commentary”. To use Ursula K. Le Guin as an example: _The Word For World Is Forest_ is message fic. Take away the ham-handed, simplistic Vietnam stuff and there’s no actual story there. BUT–look at _Dispossessed_ or _Left Hand of Darkness_–you can take the commentary out and there’s still the framework of a story in both. Another example is the “Left Behind” books. They’re message fic (and crap. Utter dreck…not even worth PALATR at)–take away the hamfisted bible-thumping and there’s literally nothing left. Take the same bible-thumping stuff out of the first 6 Narnia books and there’s still a story there, just scenes missing. Almost all stories have socio-political commentary, but (thankfully) there aren’t a ton of “message” stories \*Who’s kind of an exception to the rule. Something about Heinlein–and it’s not that I share some of his views–makes him readable even at his most didactic. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/91 "2015-04-11T23:05:03Z")
[Kameron Hurley writes in _The Atlantic:_](http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/04/the-culture-wars-come-to-sci-fi/390012/) > [@](#): > > When I won two awards last year, it seemed like an impossible achievement for me, because I knew the history of the Hugos. I knew they historically rewarded popular work, set in the kinds of old, colonial, dudes-rule-everything universes that my work explicitly challenges. I never thought I’d be more than a fringe writer, but I also didn’t believe science fiction was going to change, or that I’d be part of making that happen. I figured it would continue to tell the same old stories about the same old futures until the last of its readers died out, and that I’d be shouting for a more humanitarian future at the margins with others like me. But, like our wider culture, science-fiction and fantasy fandom grew and shifted; and with it, our vision of the future changed, too. > > \ > > The demographics of the United States are shifting (by 2050, people of color will outnumber Caucasians), and young people’s views are becoming increasingly liberal (even 61 percent of young Republicans favor same-sex marriage). The effects of this are being felt across all aspects of our public life. The media being consumed now is different than that preferred by the dominant culture of the 1990s, let alone the 1950s, and there’s undeniably a greater appetite for progressive stories. > > So it’s no coincidence that many of the people block voting these awards are the same ones sending death threats to women and people of color, sending SWAT teams to the addresses of critics, and hijacking accounts and identities to try and silence those creating more inclusive stories. Suppressing the recognition that comes from winning awards also serves to silence the futures being written—how many works will we _not_ see this year reprinted in the award lists in major publications? It’s no coincidence. Sad/Rabid Puppies, Gamergate, the Tea Party, the religious right, anti-abortion legislation, climate change denial, Angry White Men, MRAs – it’s all part of a desperate cultural rearguard action they must know they are destined to lose in the end, which makes them all the more desperate, and all the more angry. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/92 "2015-04-11T23:08:19Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > \*Who’s kind of an exception to the rule. Something about Heinlein–and it’s not that I share some of his views–makes him readable even at his most didactic. Oh, my exposure to Heinlein has not been nearly so positive. Not a writer I want to explore further. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/93 "2015-04-11T23:15:07Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > I’m in the “accessible” fiction camp and I agree with him that the last two or three years there’s been a lean towards the lit-crit type. But there was the same drift in the late '60s, early '70s. This too shall pass. Of course, both kinds of SF have their fans, and there’s plenty of room in the genre for both, and [as George R.R. Martin points out](http://grrm.livejournal.com/418285.html), you’ll find both nominated for Hugos, neither gets frozen out by the other. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/94 "2015-04-11T23:16:35Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Oh, my exposure to Heinlein has not been nearly so positive. Not a writer I want to explore further. He has his flaws, but he’s part of the core canon, one of the authors you can’t call yourself a Trufan if you haven’t read. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/95 "2015-04-11T23:22:44Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Nah–There’s clearly a difference between “message fiction” and “sociopolitical commentary”. I agree a distinction exists, but the arguments the Puppies present makes me wonder if they care about the difference. I wouldn’t categorize much, if any, of the work of the last 10-15 years of Hugos nominees as strict message fiction, even if there’s plenty of sociopolitical commentary. But this recent stuff is what they’re objecting to. Their argument, taken _prima facie_, makes no sense unless you do ignore the difference. Of course, if you don’t take their argument _prima facie_, you get left with a bunch of whiners demanding attention, some of whom get a big kick out of shitting on other people’s lawns. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2015, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/96 "2015-04-11T23:27:16Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > [http://nkjemisin.com/2014/05/wiscon-38-guest-of-honor-speech/#sthash.cm96N4Wc.dpuf](http://nkjemisin.com/2014/05/wiscon-38-guest-of-honor-speech/#sthash.cm96N4Wc.dpuf) > Here ya go. 🙂 Of particular interest is Jemisin’s quote from Samuel R. Delaney: > [@](#): > > I’m going to start this off with a quote from Chip Delany, writing in the essay [“Racism and Science Fiction” which was published in NYRSF in 1998.](http://www.nyrsf.com/racism-and-science-fiction-.html) It’s online, you can look it up. > > > [@](#): > > > > "Since I began to publish in 1962, I have often been asked, by people of all colors, what my experience of racial prejudice in the science fiction field has been. Has it been nonexistent? By no means: It was definitely there. A child of the political protests of the ’50s and ’60s, I’ve frequently said to people who asked that question: As long as there are only one, two, or a handful of us, however, I presume in a field such as science fiction, where many of its writers come out of the liberal-Jewish tradition, prejudice will most likely remain a slight force—until, say, black writers start to number thirteen, fifteen, twenty percent of the total. At that point, where the competition might be perceived as having some economic heft, chances are we will have as much racism and prejudice here as in any other field. > > > > We are still a long way away from such statistics. > > > > But we are certainly moving closer." Prophetic. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2015, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/97 "2015-04-12T00:51:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > He has his flaws, but he’s part of the core canon, one of the authors you can’t call yourself a Trufan if you haven’t read. I can’t imagine ever caring to call myself that! I’m far on the fantasy side of the SF/Fantasy divide, and Heinlein is not part of any canon I have interest in. ---
**Author:** ![bashere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@bashere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bashere)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2015, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/98 "2015-04-12T01:26:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Of course, both kinds of SF have their fans, and there’s plenty of room in the genre for both, and [as George R.R. Martin points out](http://grrm.livejournal.com/418285.html), you’ll find both nominated for Hugos, neither gets frozen out by the other. And some fans are fans of both. Zealots on both sides risk alienating a lot of people (some of whom read with a breadth that verges on indiscriminate) by being too strident. I can certainly say that this has turned me off to quite a few writers on both sides of that argument. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2015, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/99 "2015-04-12T01:45:46Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > \*Who’s kind of an exception to the rule. Something about Heinlein–and it’s not that I share some of his views–makes him readable even at his most didactic. Speak for yourself, dude. To me it’s why his fanbase is about as annoying as the Sad Puppies. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968/100 "2015-04-12T02:03:54Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Oh, my exposure to Heinlein has not been nearly so positive. Not a writer I want to explore further. I read a bunch of his stuff when I was younger, but when I went back to reread him, I found that he reaaaalllly didn’t hold up for me. There’s a smugness in his writing that drives me up the wall. FWIW, Spider Robinson is pretty far on the hippie end of the spectrum and has a similar smugness. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2015-hugo-award-nominees/716968.md?page=6)