2015 Hugo Award Nominees

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

So because someone makes a stupid claim, and they don’t cite it, and the only cite you can find is a since-retracted and removed article, and I don’t want to waste time searching for (what I believe to be nonexistent) evidence for someone else’s claims, I must be opposed? I’m the one not interested in actual facts?

Whatever you say, buddy.

Incidentally, I followed the only link in that Correia post. It goes to yet another self-pitying post by Torgerson about how the poor puppies were maligned by the media. His evidence? That same EW article that had already been retracted by the time he wrote about it.

Which is why I love this line from Correia, talking about the media:

@Correia

It was almost like they were all reading off the same script.

[Rick]

@A_isha

But there is no denial. That’s the point.

The other members of the self-described “ELoE” made it clear that Vox Day was one of their number. They also made it clear that the “ELoE” (which, again, they described as including Day) discussed and selected the nominees for the slate. Never, at any point, did the other members say anything remotely resembling “Vox Day was never a member of our group that discussed and selected nominees for the slate and Vox Day did not help us discuss and select nominees for the slate”.

On the contrary, they went to great lengths to avoid saying that, dancing around the issue with things like “Vox Day ran his own separate campaign” (as if Day being part of the group that picked nominees for the SP slate and then using that slate to run his own parallel campaign are mutually exclusive things) and mealy-mouthed refusals to separate themselves and their campaign from Day.

Jesus Christ on a pogo stick You take a couple of lines from a satire article about the how humorless the twits that make the SJW brigade are. Here is the passage

I hereby will vote Vox Day our Supreme Dark Lord, declare Larry Correia to be our International Lord of Hate, decree Sarah Hoyt to be our Beautiful but Evil Space Princess whom we all love and obey, and — let me see, all the good positions are taken — perhaps I can be the Evil Brain in a Jar just like my ancestor, Simon Wright. Perhaps Sarah Hoyt will carry me around in a handbag, as she walks the grounds of her secret base hidden in a cold volcano cone, commanding innocent and cringing minions to be flogged with electric whips, or sent screaming to the Agony Vat.

I’m sorry if you can’t tell that is obviously satire. Hell my dog can, I don’t see why you can’t. Anyway then Larry and Sarah liked the nicknames they were given so they started using them. For example Sarah blogged about carrying John in her purse. By this time Larry has been told he was a horrible person so many times he figured he’d run with it. So he started referring to himself as the International Lord of Hate. He has even gone so far that when he decided to make some challenge coins sale to fans he included this one.
So you take one line of a humorous satirical article and couple that with Brad Torgersen not denying that Vox is part of Sad Puppies and that is your proof?
I have news for you not everything you read on the internet is true. The Onion for example is not a trusted source of news. Sometimes satire is just satire.
Compared to your “proof” the guys that say the planes were holograms, and Dick Cheney blew up the twin towers with nano thermite and alien space rays are the most reasoned and logical guys in town. Hell I showed your post to the guys that made the loose change video and their response was “Holy Fuck that crazy!”

@Exapno_Mapcase

And yet here I am, attacking you for not denouncing Vox Day. Which you are not doing.

You can’t get away with it. We will bring it up every time you post. You and your ilk are proud enablers of and minions to someone who is homophobic, sexist, racist, and a world class bigot.

Most people here are seeing these names for the first time. But for me this is the third major time Vox Day (Ted Beale) has caused a shitstorm in the field. I checked him out very carefully: went to his blog, read his arguments, read his opponents, looked at his public statements, followed him on writers boards not accessible from the outside. When Larry Correia calls him Stalin he understates the case. You have to live with Beale’s comments day after day to realize how deeply you despise him.

Yet Correia refused to denounce him. Rick here refuses to denounce him. Why?

Why haven’t I denounced him? Well there are four reasons actually

1. No one so far has asked me my opinion of Vox Day
2. I have no direct knowledge of Vox Day and his writing or positions.
3. Goes to how I was raised and taught. My parents are from Missouri the Show Me state. I was raised in an analytical atmosphere where phrases like the one on a marble paperweight on my desk

The motto of quality control is
Trust everybody, but all ways cut the cards.

or working for a company that instructed their managers, trust but verify, and inspect what you expect. When I am interested in something I investigate it before I draw an opinion.
4. (and Probably the most important reason) SJWs lie. Over and over. Lie like rugs. I swear they think that if they repeat a lie often enough it becomes fact, like saying bettlejuice three times or something. After watching people I like being libeled and slandered with outright lies that are easily proved false, my default position with anything told to me as “fact” by an SJW is that it is probably a lie, until I verify it. Hell at this point, based on your post Exapno if you come back and post that tomorrow the sun will rise in the east, I would call the observatory to verify before I agreed with you.
So you will pardon me if I don’t take your word for it that Vox Day is worse than Hitler.

@MrDibble

I’m not implying, I’m stating it outright He’s mistaken. Portuguese is not Hispanic And how convenient to cloak oneself as a minority as a defence against accusations of that.Because he, himself, says he’s Portuguese. That’s not Hispanic.

I live in the barrio and grew up in the barrio. I can tell you that Hispanics Do not identify as white. If you ask a local gang banger around here if he is white, he will tell you “Fuck no, I’m a Cholo” When I lived in a farming community in California’s Central Valley, the answer was “Hell no, I’m a portagee.” Both very proudly Hispanic.
Well since the SJW are all about how you identify yourself is what counts. Remember you have white chicks identifying as a black chick, the head of Black Lives matter claims he is black but he may or may not be white. According to them there are, 3 or 4 or is it 5 sexes, I lost my scorecard so I can’t keep up.
So since the rule with them is it is how you identify yourself, and Larry Correia identifies himself as Hispanic, he is Hispanic. I’m just following your rules.

[Rick]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Incidentally, I followed the only link in that Correia post. It goes to yet another self-pitying post by Torgerson about how the poor puppies were maligned by the media. His evidence? That same EW article that had already been retracted by the time he wrote about it.

Which is why I love this line from Correia, talking about the media:

Nice way to cherry pick a quote out of context there, Sparky. How about reading the entire article up to that point.

April 7, 2015   
correia45   
470

Yesterday the following media outlets ran articles about the Sad Puppies campaign, in which they either directly said or insinuated that it was run and populated by racist straight white males with the goal of keeping scifi white and male. (not true)

The Telegraph
Entertainment Weekly
Salon
Huffington Post
Slash Dot
io9
The Guardian

It was almost like they were all reading off the same script.

Remember what I wrote in my last post about SJWs lying? Here is proof.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

Yeah, I know what the point of his quote was. I was amused by how well it actually applied to him. What exactly did you think the point of my lie was–was I trying to trick people into thinking he was admitting to following a script? I’m not sure what my end game was supposed to be, if that’s a lie.

Again, Correia mentioned a whole bunch of other media outlets. He included a link only the one EW story, a story that admittedly got it wrong and was quickly retracted. Why didn’t he include links to the others?

[Battle_Pope]

@Rick

2. I have no direct knowledge of Vox Day and his writing or positions.

Here you go:

http://www.fstdt.net/Search.aspx?Fundie=Vox+Day

Here’s a fun one:

First, there is no such thing as marital rape. Once consent is formally given in public ceremony, it cannot be revoked; the form in which marital consent is revoked is well-established. It is called divorce. This isn’t a religious issue, although many on both sides will attempt to view it that way, it’s a simple matter of when consent is revocable and the specific form that revocation must take. I invite those who believe that consent may always be granted and revoked at will to consent to join the U.S. Army, then attempt to withdraw their consent. That should serve to clarify the matter for them; one hopes they will enjoy their extended holiday in Afghanistan. The attempt to create a legal concept of “marital rape” is no less than an attempt to destroy the basic concept of marriage. If the husband or the wife has no more claim to the spouse’s body than anyone else, then the marital vows are meaningless and the marriage is a charade. Once consent is withdrawn, the marriage has ended.

While we’re at it here is puppy John C. Wright:

http://www.fstdt.net/Search.aspx?Fundie=John+C.+Wright

(Discussing Ms Marvel, a Pakistani-American Superhero.)

Meanwhile, the one and only person on the team with a clear religious identity is the Muslim girl. This is a religion which has, whether anyone admits it or not, declared war on the whole world, and has, whether anyone says so or not, adopted terrorism and stealth jihad as the main means to wage that war.

This is the same as if, during World War Two, a comic book made one of their heroines a member of the Nazi party. But one of the those nice Nazi party members who do not approve of Hitler, or the other official doctrines, written in the official literature, of the organization to which she willingly belongs. Such a comic character would appeal to the moderate Nazis whom we do not wish to alienate, since, after all, Hitler highjacked the noble institution and motives of the Party.

[Rick]

It was left as an exercise for the student

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Rick

It was left as an exercise for the student

Given that every one of his students is listing the EW article, I’m all :dubious: .

Look: when I have a point to make, if I expect you to believe it, I include links. If you expect me to believe what you’re saying, consider the same. If you don’t include links, neither I nor anyone else is going to find your claims persuasive.

[A_isha]

@Rick

So you take one line of a humorous satirical article and couple that with Brad Torgersen not denying that Vox is part of Sad Puppies and that is your proof?

Nope. You might want to try rereading what I posted again (and what people like Jim C. Hines posted that I linked to).

@Rick

Why haven’t I denounced him? Well there are four reasons actually

1. No one so far has asked me my opinion of Vox Day
2. I have no direct knowledge of Vox Day and his writing or positions.
3. Goes to how I was raised and taught. My parents are from Missouri the Show Me state. I was raised in an analytical atmosphere where phrases like the one on a marble paperweight on my desk or working for a company that instructed their managers, trust but verify, and inspect what you expect. When I am interested in something I investigate it before I draw an opinion.
4. (and Probably the most important reason) SJWs lie. Over and over. Lie like rugs. I swear they think that if they repeat a lie often enough it becomes fact, like saying bettlejuice three times or something. After watching people I like being libeled and slandered with outright lies that are easily proved false, my default position with anything told to me as “fact” by an SJW is that it is probably a lie, until I verify it. Hell at this point, based on your post Exapno if you come back and post that tomorrow the sun will rise in the east, I would call the observatory to verify before I agreed with you.
   So you will pardon me if I don’t take your word for it that Vox Day is worse than Hitler.

You won’t take his word for it because you say you prefer to investigate things for yourself, and then you pointedly refuse to investigate them.

So here, let me do your work for you. The following are not links to any “SJW” boogeymen, but to Day’s own words. Please, feel free to follow the links yourself to verify them.

The cost of educating women

Not only have the proposed benefits manifestly failed to manifest themselves, but the opportunity cost of future generations has begun to become readily apparent everywhere from Europe to Asia. One wonders how low birth rates have to fall in civilized countries before the elites begin to realize that the Taliban may not, in fact, be the stupid ones with regards to this particular matter.

voxday.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-cost-of-educating-women.html

Ironically, in light of the strong correlation between female education and demographic decline, a purely empirical perspective on Malala Yousafzai, the poster girl for global female education, may indicate that the Taliban’s attempt to silence her was perfectly rational and scientifically justifiable.

The wages of female education

Because female independence is strongly correlated with a whole host of social ills. Using the utilitarian metric favored by most atheists, a few acid-burned faces is a small price to pay for lasting marriages, stable families, legitimate children, low levels of debt, strong currencies, affordable housing, homogenous populations, low levels of crime, and demographic stability.

http://voxday.blogspot.ca/2012/06/scientist-beats-up-pz.html

Jemisin has it wrong; it is not that I, and others, do not view her as human, (although genetic science presently suggests that we are not equally homo sapiens sapiens), it is that we simply do not view her as being fully civilized for the obvious historical reason that she is not.

She is lying about the laws in Texas and Florida too. The laws are not there to let whites " just shoot people like me, without consequence, as long as they feel threatened by my presence", those self-defense laws have been put in place to let whites defend their lives and their property from people, like her, who are half-savages engaged in attacking them.

[…]

Unlike the white males she excoriates, there is no evidence to be found anywhere on the planet that a society of NK Jemisins is capable of building an advanced civilization, or even successfully maintaining one without significant external support from those white males.

[…]

Being an educated, but ignorant half-savage, with little more understanding of what it took to build a new literature by “a bunch of beardy old middle-class middle-American guys” than an illiterate Igbotu tribesman has of how to build a jet engine, Jemisin clearly does not understand that her dishonest call for “reconciliation” and even more diversity within SF/F is tantamount to a call for its decline into irrelevance.

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2013/06/a-black-female-fantasist.html

The ironic, but logically inescapable fact is that encouraging men to rape would be considerably less damaging to a society than encouraging women to enter the workforce en masse.

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2013/02/mailvox-which-is-worse-work-or-rape.html?showComment=1361440817175

There is no evidence that women voting has been a positive development in any nation in the world. Should someone like to submit some for once, I’d be happy to examine it.

[…]

3. History shows that the women’s vote is inextricably tied to a substantive loss of individual freedom.

http://voxday.blogspot.com/2005/08/why-dont-women-have-to-vote.html

Would you like more, or is that enough to get you started?

@Rick

I live in the barrio and grew up in the barrio. I can tell you that Hispanics Do not identify as white. If you ask a local gang banger around here if he is white, he will tell you “Fuck no, I’m a Cholo” When I lived in a farming community in California’s Central Valley, the answer was “Hell no, I’m a portagee.” Both very proudly Hispanic.

You claimed that the Federal government recognizes Correia as Hispanic. They don’t.

Well since the SJW are all about how you identify yourself is what counts. Remember you have white chicks identifying as a black chick, the head of Black Lives matter claims he is black but he may or may not be white. According to them there are, 3 or 4 or is it 5 sexes, I lost my scorecard so I can’t keep up.
So since the rule with them is it is how you identify yourself, and Larry Correia identifies himself as Hispanic, he is Hispanic. I’m just following your rules.

As I said, he (and you, since the above is wrong on just about every level imaginable) are playing a cargo-cult version of identity politics.

[MrDibble]

@Rick

I live in the barrio and grew up in the barrio.

Oh, so now you’re Hispanic? :dubious:

@Rick

I can tell you that Hispanics Do not identify as white.

I’d love you to tell all the Spanish they’re not White.

You do realize the logical fallacy of thinking that just because the subset of Hispanics you grew up with don’t consider themselves White, all Hispanics don’t, right?

@Rick

Well since the SJW are all about how you identify yourself is what counts

Since I’m not a SJW, I don’t see the relevance.

[QUOTE=Rick]
According to the Federal Government he isn’t white he is Hispanic. Don’t argue with me, call your congresscritter.
[/QUOTE]

@Rick

So since the rule with them is it is how you identify yourself, and Larry Correia identifies himself as Hispanic, he is Hispanic. I’m just following your rules.

Huh. I thought you were following the Federal Government (even though you’re wrong about what they consider Hispanic).

Still, whatever keeps the Gish Gallop going, yeah?

[Idle_Thoughts]

Let’s everyone dial it back a notch in here, the level of outrage is getting too thick.

This is not the Pit or GD and while debates aren’t prohibited in other forums, this one is starting to sound more snarky and personal.

[Ruken]

There are statues and book cover stickers at stake here!

[Cara_mel]

@MrDibble

You do realize the logical fallacy of thinking that just because the subset of Hispanics you grew up with don’t consider themselves White, all Hispanics don’t, right?

I’m pretty sure he does, but I don’t really see the point of that statement as the subject at hand is Hispanics from that very area - California’s Central Valley. So I’ll take **Rick’s **word that he knows a little something about how people there think and how they identify themselves.

In this short interview Correia talks about his roots (and see what he says when they ask him about “controversies” in his writing career. Couldn’t get any more low-key)

Portuguese-American Journal interview

Oh, so now you’re Hispanic?

To be fair, he didn’t say that. And admit it, that’s just childish.
Anyway, here’s the apres-award blog post by Eric Flint. He gives a pretty even-handed view, neither for nor against the puppies.

Eric Flint on the Hugo Awards

[Fenris]

@Cara_mel

Anyway, here’s the apres-award blog post by Eric Flint. He gives a pretty even-handed view, neither for nor against the puppies.

Eric Flint on the Hugo Awards

That’s a great article. One of the best I’ve read about this whole mess. Thanks for posting it!

[emarkp]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Given that every one of his students is listing the EW article, I’m all :dubious:

io9

To Torgersen and Correia, this meant that a “rarefied, insular” group of writers were promoting their agenda by nominating works by women and people of color. To the rest of us, it looked as though science fiction and fantasy were finally catching up to reality — the best stories aren’t only the ones told by straight white men.

gawker:

a small group of authors and their supporters set out to re-redefine and shrink the genre back to what they think it should be: Mainly white dudes writing space adventures with cool ships

The Atlantic

The prizes have been targeted by voting blocks opposed to progressive efforts to recognize more women and writers of color. But trying to undo change in an increasingly diverse world is futile

dailydot

Last year’s Worldcon made a concerted effort to be more inclusive, inviting a younger and more wide-ranging variety of panelists to match the unprecedentedly diverse slate of Hugo nominees. This was a practical effort to refresh the aging Worldcon community, which risks losing women, young people and minorities to other conventions like DragonCon. But to the Sad Puppies, this progression was already a step too far. By taking action against what they saw as a liberal conspiracy in SF/F fandom, the Sad Puppies created a very real (and public) conspiracy of their own.

The Mary Sue

although Martin is obviously both personally and professionally impacted by the Hugos, as a white cis straight man he’s not someone Vox Day or author Brad R. Torgerson are tired of seeing in sci-fi.

Salon

A long, long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away (last year), the Hugo Awards seemed to undergo a seismic change. Top prizes recognized a generation of younger, more diverse writers, with names like Ann Leckie, Kameron Hurley, and John Chu, and fans celebrated what appeared to be enriched levels of awareness/receptivity in the air. But then things took a distinctly Gamergate-tinged turn. Authors Brad R. Torgersen and Larry Correia re-upped a campaign called Sad Puppies (originally “Sad Puppies Think of the Children,” an ironic send-up of liberal bleeding hearts) that had achieved modest success in 2014, elevating a few ordained works to that year’s Hugo longlist.*

The ostensible raison d’puppy

The Telegraph (which had to retract):

The Hugo Awards have been at the centre of a furore after two campaigns successfully prevented female authors and authors of colour from being proportionally nominated.

All of this was found with about 10 minutes of googling, btw.
And many still didn’t get the facts right, even after 4 months.

Just recently:

Salon:

This year, a group of mostly straight white men—threatened by the increasing amount of attention paid to women and people of color exploring progressive ideas in sci-fi—tried to hijack the Hugos

NPR:

The sad puppies - mostly white, mostly male - came together as a backlash

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

Hold up. The original claim was that

@Rick

The Anti Puppies said loud and long that the SPs are nothing but a bunch of old white guys wanting things back the way they were.

Either you’re offering these quotes in support of this claim–which they clearly aren’t–or you’re offering them in support of a different claim–which you’ve not let us know what it is.

Which is it? Do you think these quotes support the claim that I quoted above, or not?

[Malthus]

@Fenris

That’s a great article. One of the best I’ve read about this whole mess. Thanks for posting it!

I agree.

Sadly, whatever the rights and wrongs of it, the main effect of the whole sorry mess will be, I think, to discourage those who just enjoy the genre from caring about these awards.

There is nothing less interesting to outsiders than in-fighting among members of a fandom.

[MrDibble]

@Cara_mel

I’m pretty sure he does, but I don’t really see the point of that statement as the subject at hand is Hispanics from that very area - California’s Central Valley.

No, the subject at hand is “Are Hispanics Necessarily Not White?” - I certainly wasn’t constraining it.

So I’ll take **Rick’s **word that he knows a little something about how people there think and how they identify themselves.

Irrelevant to the overall question.

In this short interview Correia talks about his roots

Did you notice he didn’t use the words Hispanic or Latino once. I sure did.

To be fair, he didn’t say that.

I didn’t say he said that.

And admit it, that’s just childish.

No, it’s a question. I’m asking Rick if he’s saying he’s Hispanic, therefore speaks from experience. Not that it matters, though - it’s still not going to make Portuguese into Hispanics.