# 2016 Bernie Sanders (D-VT) campaign for POTUS thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 28, 2015, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754 "2015-04-28T22:40:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/481 "2015-10-06T15:15:03Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Do you mean daring to have views on gun control that even in the slightest deviate from the urban social liberal consensus? If that’s what you want to call simple human decency, go right ahead. > [@](#): > > And for the record, he has been talking a bit about gun control [It’s at best a mixed, you might even say muddled and expedient, record.](http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Bernie_Sanders_Gun_Control.htm) It’s hardly going to help him. > [@](#): > > he ought to be flexible on guns as he has before. Expound, please. In what ways should he change his policy positions, in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/482 "2015-10-06T15:45:21Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If that’s what you want to call simple human decency, go right ahead. No it means supporting half-assed measures like assault weapons bans and the like that ultimately do nothing to reduce murder while wasting valuable political capital while alienating large numbers of rural voters. > [@](#): > > [It’s at best a mixed, you might even say muddled and expedient, record.](http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Bernie_Sanders_Gun_Control.htm) It’s hardly going to help him. Maybe with the suburban moms and hipsters, it might help with the West Virginians and the Montanans. What I meant, though, was that he has been talking about gun control in recent days-I was at his Boston rally on Saturday and he talked of the need to keep firearms out of the hands of the mentally ill. > [@](#): > > Expound, please. In what ways should he change his policy positions, in your opinion? He need not change his position on guns, so much as avoid making it his focus. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/483 "2015-10-06T17:44:19Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > No it means supporting half-assed measures like assault weapons bans and the like that ultimately do nothing to reduce murder while wasting valuable political capital while alienating large numbers of rural voters. Nobody is saying that except the gun crowd, are they? Using the same caricatures as the Teabaggers is not really helpful to Sanders, and it’s disappointing to keep seeing it. > [@](#): > > What I meant, though, was that he has been talking about gun control in recent days-I was at his Boston rally on Saturday and he talked of the need to keep firearms out of the hands of the mentally ill. That’s as timid a stand as anyone could possibly make. > [@](#): > > He need not change his position on guns, so much as avoid making it his focus. It isn’t up to him what the focuses of the campaign are going to be. Assuming (and realistically) that gun control keeps making itself an issue, then he’s going to have to address it - and he’ll be at a disadvantage vs. candidates who can do it more credibly and comprehensively and sensibly. That’s already happening. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/484 "2015-10-06T18:43:39Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Nobody is saying that except the gun crowd, are they? Using the same caricatures as the Teabaggers is not really helpful to Sanders, and it’s disappointing to keep seeing it. Its a true statement and I’ve seen quite a few people on the left say it as well. I don’t see how its a caricature to point out that the perception of the Democratic Party’s stance on guns has hurt it among rural voters or that Assault Weapons Ban we had in the 1990s did not make any impact on murder rates > [@](#): > > That’s as timid a stand as anyone could possibly make. Well what do you want him to do and/or say? He also did refer to his support for an automatic weapons ban which I forgot to mention previously. > [@](#): > > It isn’t up to him what the focuses of the campaign are going to be. Assuming (and realistically) that gun control keeps making itself an issue, then he’s going to have to address it - and he’ll be at a disadvantage vs. candidates who can do it more credibly and comprehensively and sensibly. That’s already happening. It seems to me that gun control is being superseded as an issue by the far bigger ones Sanders is focusing on such as income inequality, protection and expansion of the New Deal/Great Society welfare state, the minimum wage, and so forth. No candidate is going to be able to satisfy everyone on every issue and Sanders’s perception of unorthodoxy on guns is going to help him not hurt him in the general if anything. Nor do I see Clinton making gun control somehow the centrepiece of the campaign-in effect she’s saying the same ting as Sanders. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/485 "2015-10-06T19:55:35Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Its a true statement and I’ve seen quite a few people on the left say it as well. Nothing of the sort was part of our conversation until you brought it up. > [@](#): > > I don’t see how its a caricature to point out that the perception of the Democratic Party’s stance on guns has hurt it among rural voters or that Assault Weapons Ban we had in the 1990s did not make any impact on murder rates It is a caricature to say that’s \*the \*party’s stand. > [@](#): > > Well what do you want him to do and/or say? Things that make people want to support him - as long as they’re sincere. Not the NRA line, and especially not if he’s going to claim to be the progressive, people’s choice. > [@](#): > > He also did refer to his support for an automatic weapons ban which I forgot to mention previously. And which you have just derided. So, that’s nice. > [@](#): > > It seems to me that gun control is being superseded as an issue by the far bigger ones Sanders is focusing on Not if the voters, and bluntly the media, want to focus on gun control. The candidates have very limited ability to define the issues. Where is this “supersedure” coming from - people who wish it wasn’t an issue, maybe? It is an issue, and every news day it’s an issue, and it isn’t going away just because you want it to. > [@](#): > > No candidate is going to be able to satisfy everyone on every issue and Sanders’s perception of unorthodoxy on guns is going to help him not hurt him in the general if anything. If you can imagine a world where he’s the nominee, you can imagine a world where he doesn’t have to be held accountable for all of his positions, I guess. > [@](#): > > Nor do I see Clinton making gun control somehow the centrepiece of the campaign-in effect she’s saying the same ting as Sanders. She’s got specific, enactable proposals that, you could fairly argue, only go around the edges, but would save some lives and would not require the NRA-owned Republicans to agree. Sanders … does not. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/486 "2015-10-06T21:44:06Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Nothing of the sort was part of our conversation until you brought it up. Yes because I was making the point that automatically taking the Bloombergian stance on gun control doesn’t constitute “human decency” which all candidates are morally obliged to take. > [@](#): > > It is a caricature to say that’s \*the \*party’s stand. I agree but I’m concerned with voter perception here. > [@](#): > > Things that make people want to support him - as long as they’re sincere. Not the NRA line, and especially not if he’s going to claim to be the progressive, people’s choice. Being for or against gun control and being a “progressive” candidate have virtually no relation lest we say Ronald Reagan is more progressive than Brian Schweitzer or that Michael Bloomberg is to the left of Bernie Sanders. > [@](#): > > And which you have just derided. So, that’s nice. Yes I think his stance is silly, unconstitutional, and most importantly a waste of political capital but I could care less what his stance is as long as he does not make it his focus. > [@](#): > > Not if the voters, and bluntly the media, want to focus on gun control. The candidates have very limited ability to define the issues. Where is this “supersedure” coming from - people who wish it wasn’t an issue, maybe? It is an issue, and every news day it’s an issue, and it isn’t going away just because you want it to. Except there’s little evidence that voters themselves (as opposed to the media) are particularly concerned about guns, much more than various other issues at hand. Indeed if there is any voter backlash its from the pro-gun rights crowd since they are more tightly organized and more likely to attribute great importance to the issue. > [@](#): > > If you can imagine a world where he’s the nominee, you can imagine a world where he doesn’t have to be held accountable for all of his positions, I guess. What is that supposed to even mean? > [@](#): > > She’s got specific, enactable proposals that, you could fairly argue, only go around the edges, but would save some lives and would not require the NRA-owned Republicans to agree. Sanders … does not. I actually went and looked at the proposals Clinton has suggested on gun control and on the whole it seems similar to Bernie Sanders-she doesn’t seem particularly concerned with an assault weapons ban for example. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/487 "2015-10-07T07:03:47Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Anyways both McGovern and before him Eugene McCarthy went about being more liberal than average the wrong way-ie by emphasizing cultural and foreign policy issues rather than economic ones. Good point. Bernie _is_ very civil libertarian, but he doesn’t emphasize that, because that’s not the argument going unheard in the “mainstream.” He runs on economic issues, and for the common man. Playing up how pro-gay you are is grabbing a double-edged sword by the tip in much of this country. Talking about subsidized tuition at state colleges, higher income taxes on the upper margins, and a bit of protectionism–that’s not the same problem with social conservatives. When’s the last time you heard a Democratic presidential candidate talk like that? He’s not the kind of “liberal” we’ve gotten used to, is he? It might _work._ ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/488 "2015-10-07T07:22:32Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [It’s at best a mixed, you might even say muddled and expedient, record.](http://www.ontheissues.org/2016/Bernie_Sanders_Gun_Control.htm) It’s hardly going to help him. A Clintonista is complaining about muddled and expedient positions? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/489 "2015-10-12T07:31:10Z")
Sanders is starting to lose me on his proposals that add up to like $2 trillion a year. He claims that he’ll tax the rich and corporations to get that money, but on Day 1 the CBO will explain life to him, and then what does he do? Ending the Bush tax cuts was only good for $70 billion/yr. So just to do some back of the envelope math, if an average 5% or so rise in tax rates generates $70 billion, then to get to $2 trillion, you’d need to make tax rates 150%. I realize that he plans to get some of that from corporations, primarily by taxing foreign corporations on their foreign earnings, which along with his rejection of trade deals is going to do wonders for making the US more liked in the world. The richest nation in the world poaching other nations’ tax bases while protecting our markets from foreign competitors is going to thrill the rest of the world, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/490 "2015-10-12T13:15:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Sanders is starting to lose me on his proposals that add up to like $2 trillion a year. That assumes that most of those measures would be able to pass. And of course Bernie’s centrepiece-nationalized Medicare is projected to save enormous amounts in healthcare spending. > [@](#): > > He claims that he’ll tax the rich and corporations to get that money, but on Day 1 the CBO will explain life to him, and then what does he do? Ending the Bush tax cuts was only good for $70 billion/yr. Why stop there? Why not raise new taxes? > [@](#): > > So just to do some back of the envelope math, if an average 5% or so rise in tax rates generates $70 billion, then to get to $2 trillion, you’d need to make tax rates 150%. That assumes, again, that all new funding is coming from only taxes as opposed to cuts elsewhere and/or borrowing. > [@](#): > > I realize that he plans to get some of that from corporations, primarily by taxing foreign corporations on their foreign earnings, which along with his rejection of trade deals is going to do wonders for making the US more liked in the world. The richest nation in the world poaching other nations’ tax bases while protecting our markets from foreign competitors is going to thrill the rest of the world, I’m sure. Who gives a fuck? The American workingman’s welfare is far more important than some neo-Mandarin ChiCom bureaucrat. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/491 "2015-10-12T13:25:11Z")
Yes, but other countries can poach our tax base in retaliation. We already tax foreign earnings more than anyone. The US will never get rich with a “beggar thy neighbor” economic strategy. Sanders would be Herbert Hoover all over again. I was attracted to Sanders for his honesty, but now I think I might like Clinton better, now that he’s given some pretty wild proposals. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/492 "2015-10-12T13:59:04Z")
This is as opposed to the Republicans’ multi-trillion dollar spending projects, for which the funding plan is… wait, look over there! What spending? Honest, I don’t see any spending! ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/493 "2015-10-12T14:13:45Z")
Those aren’t spending projects and they aren’t permanent. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/494 "2015-10-12T15:11:22Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Those aren’t spending projects and they aren’t permanent. They’re wars. Permanence remains to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![Octarine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/22d042/32.png) [@Octarine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octarine)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/495 "2015-10-12T15:34:48Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Nobody is saying that except the gun crowd, are they? Using the same caricatures as the Teabaggers is not really helpful to Sanders, and it’s disappointing to keep seeing it. > > That’s as timid a stand as anyone could possibly make. To be fair, when the Republicans use the “better mental health care” line, it’s an obvious dodge - they defund the programs that would actually help the mentally ill, and they only bring up the subject when they’re asked about guns. Sanders’ campaign is heavily focused on the kinds of policies that would help struggling mentally ill people, giving more legitimacy to the plan. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/496 "2015-10-13T02:25:21Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > They’re wars. Permanence remains to be seen. Wars are not permanent except to Democrats, who want to count the wars as part of the baseline and consider not using the money for social programs as a “cut”. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/497 "2015-10-13T04:31:57Z")
I see you don’t deny that Bush never raised the revenue to fund his war. Apparently, if it’s above the “baseline,” you think it doesn’t need taxes to pay for it, no matter what it costs. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/498 "2015-10-13T05:09:10Z")
I’ve never endorsed the Reagan/Bush fiscal strategy. I’m more into the Eisenhower/Coolidge model. The right thing to do with war spending is let it end. There will be more wars and we can’t just plug war spending into domestic spending every time. If we’d done that after WWII and Korea we’d have been broke several times over. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/499 "2015-10-13T06:35:49Z")
The right thing to do with war spending is\* to raise taxes to pay for it when you choose to go to war.\* How is this a hard concept? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/500 "2015-10-13T06:41:20Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Wars are not permanent except to Democrats, who want to count the wars as part of the baseline and consider not using the money for social programs as a “cut”. It took me this long to even understand what you were trying to say. Do you have a cite for Democrats seeking to spend as much as what Bush spent on Iraq? It doesn’t matter whether Democrats want to increase domestic spending by the same amount as Bush’s unpaid-for, off-budget, irresponsible adventures. It doesn’t matter if it’s more than or less than that amount. What matters is that whatever they’re spending is on-budget and funded. Bush’s expenditures were not, and that was bad fiscal policy. It’s not that we don’t have the money. It’s that it’s bad for the government to run up that much debt. It makes the government servile to “creditors” that it should be ruling over; and it distorts the bond market. (It’s not that the money disappears, either. Domestic spending is often _stimulative._ That money becomes somebody’s salary. We can manage on a high-tax, high-spending paradigm. We might even do better.) Just raise taxes when you add expenditures! Is that so hard to understand??? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754.md?page=26)