# 2016 Bernie Sanders (D-VT) campaign for POTUS thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 28, 2015, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754 "2015-04-28T22:40:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/801 "2016-02-08T02:33:52Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I don’t want to get into a tech geek argument. The campaign is expressly questioning the integrity of Microsoft, not the ability. In fact they are insinuating Microsoft is cunning enough and capable enough to pull off a vote heist. All because they are an eeeeevil corporation. Well, arrogant, foolish, and bottom-line focused, yes; which they are. Not Skeletor, but maybe Volkswagen. Why are you suddenly defending Microsoft? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/802 "2016-02-08T02:45:58Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Apparently even with insurance premiums dropping to zero, people would be paying more in taxes than they’d save in not having premiums, according to a study by respected health care expert, Kenneth Thorpe (who Vermont actually hired when they tried to create their own single payer system): > > [Study: Bernie Sanders's single-payer plan is almost twice as expensive as he says | Vox](http://www.vox.com/2016/1/28/10858644/bernie-sanders-kenneth-thorpe-single-payer) > > I mean the trade off may be considered to be worth it, but lets not think single payer is something magical. Yeah, Thorpe’s criticism of Sanders’s numbers is the hardest body blow to the campaign I have seen. That said, I don’t entirely like the way Thorpe and Vox weight things: 1. There is a value in a Canadian-style system of automatic function and predictability. As of now, consumers on the exchanges are choosing between high-deductible and low-deductible plans based on unknowable future needs, and they have a short window of time each year to pick. 2. Of course Medicare-quality single-payer is more expensive for most taxpayers. It has to cover the presently uninsured 12%, and increase the quality of care for those presently on Medicaid or on high-deductible plans. The question is, is it \*a lot \*more expensive? 3. Sander’s plan also gets away from portability problems inherent in employer-provided insurance. That has an actual value to persons who need catastrophic care, and a Medicare-style entitlement is going to be more enduring than a COBRA regulation. Bernie’s exploiting the “third rail” to better protect workers who get sick and lose their jobs. 4. If 71% of households are at least a little bit more highly taxed, then 29% will come out ahead or even. Some of that 29% presumably are getting a relatively raw deal now, and some shared sacrifice to help \*one-quarter of Americans \*isn’t an astounding suggestion. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/803 "2016-02-08T02:51:56Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So do you think it’s a possibility that Microsoft is engaged in an elaborate plot to rig the caucus? They tried to sell the world on “Metro.” I wouldn’t be surprised at anything anymore. 😉 Also, see VW. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/804 "2016-02-08T03:45:26Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Vermont’s elected Dems line up for Hillary, not Bernie: [http://vtdigger.org/2016/02/05/vermont-politicians-gang-up-for-clinton-in-new-hampshire/](http://vtdigger.org/2016/02/05/vermont-politicians-gang-up-for-clinton-in-new-hampshire/) I am shocked, shocked that Howard Dean and the Vermont Democratic Party establishment endorsed a longtime Democrat like HRC over the man who accused them of being a bunch of useless insurance salesmen. So shocked… [/sarcasm, obvs.] I’m a little disappointed in Dr Dean. I know there’s no love lost between him and Sanders, but after Obama ignored the 50-state plan, and since Hillary doesn’t seem all that interested so far, I wonder what he really thinks of the present Democratic Party. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/805 "2016-02-08T04:14:46Z")
That Vox deal is exactly what I told my son last week the deal would turn out to be. Bernie is not levelling with people. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/806 "2016-02-08T16:07:26Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I am shocked, shocked that Howard Dean and the Vermont Democratic Party establishment endorsed a longtime Democrat like HRC over the man who accused them of being a bunch of useless insurance salesmen. > > So shocked… [/sarcasm, obvs.]… You could say that - or you could say that those elected officials who know him best, and who have worked with him (or tried to) for decades, don’t back him now. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2016, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/807 "2016-02-08T16:40:40Z")
Nice of Bill to start losing his shit again the same way he did in 2008: > **[Bill Clinton Unleashes Stinging Attack on Bernie Sanders (Published 2016)](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/08/us/politics/bill-clinton-after-months-of-restraint-unleashes-stinging-attack-on-bernie-sanders.html?_r=1)** > > Addressing supporters in New Hampshire, he portrayed his wife’s opponent for the Democratic nomination as hypocritical, dishonest and “hermetically sealed.” ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/808 "2016-02-09T03:26:02Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > You could say that - or you could say that those elected officials who know him best, and who have worked with him (or tried to) for decades, don’t back him now. Here’s more along those lines, from _The Atlantic_: [Why a Bernie Sanders Nomination Spells Out Trouble for the Democratic Party - The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/02/sanderss-party-problem/460293/) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/809 "2016-02-09T03:35:23Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Here’s more along those lines, from _The Atlantic_: [Why a Bernie Sanders Nomination Spells Out Trouble for the Democratic Party - The Atlantic](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/02/sanderss-party-problem/460293/) > [@](#): > > The lack of support for Sanders among elected Democrats may also reflect his lack of support for them. During 2015, Clinton raised $18 million for other Democratic candidates, while Sanders did no fundraising for them at all. Well, I’m sure she was in a better position to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/810 "2016-02-09T20:45:35Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Yeah, Thorpe’s criticism of Sanders’s numbers is the hardest body blow to the campaign I have seen. That said, I don’t entirely like the way Thorpe and Vox weight things: > > 1. There is a value in a Canadian-style system of automatic function and predictability. As of now, consumers on the exchanges are choosing between high-deductible and low-deductible plans based on unknowable future needs, and they have a short window of time each year to pick. > > 2. Of course Medicare-quality single-payer is more expensive for most taxpayers. It has to cover the presently uninsured 12%, and increase the quality of care for those presently on Medicaid or on high-deductible plans. The question is, is it \*a lot \*more expensive? > > 3. Sander’s plan also gets away from portability problems inherent in employer-provided insurance. That has an actual value to persons who need catastrophic care, and a Medicare-style entitlement is going to be more enduring than a COBRA regulation. Bernie’s exploiting the “third rail” to better protect workers who get sick and lose their jobs. > > 4. If 71% of households are at least a little bit more highly taxed, then 29% will come out ahead or even. Some of that 29% presumably are getting a relatively raw deal now, and some shared sacrifice to help \*one-quarter of Americans \*isn’t an astounding suggestion. 😉 In addition to the danger of people getting sick and losing their jobs, millions of Americans are also staying in jobs they don’t like solely for the sake of keeping their health insurance. If your insurance is picked up by the government, it becomes much easier to take a chance on a new job, or to start your own business (especially since you won’t have to be paying for your employees’ insurance, either). If the Republicans were serious about wanting to support small business and encourage entrepreneurship, they would be all over single payer. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/811 "2016-02-09T21:23:24Z")
I think we could be talked into supporting single payer if it was catastrophic coverage only. People could then buy insurance if they didn’t want to pay cash below the deductible. Since insurance companies’ risk would only be like $10,000 on average, that wouldn’t be very expensive insurance. For the poor, of course, we would continue to use Medicaid. Conservatives need for patients to have skin in the game, and we also need for our system to continue to be the most advanced and innovative. That’s why the single payer model of everything being free at the point of service and price controls doesn’t suit us. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/812 "2016-02-09T23:16:38Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Conservatives need for patients to have skin in the game, and we also need for our system to continue to be the most advanced and innovative. That’s why they supported Obamacare before it was proposed by a black crypto-Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2016, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/813 "2016-02-09T23:27:18Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That’s why they supported Obamacare before it was . . . . . . cool. They’re hipsters, you see! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/814 "2016-02-10T00:39:03Z")
Oops. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/815 "2016-02-10T00:40:45Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I think we could be talked into supporting single payer if it was catastrophic coverage only. People could then buy insurance if they didn’t want to pay cash below the deductible. Since insurance companies’ risk would only be like $10,000 on average, that wouldn’t be very expensive insurance. For the poor, of course, we would continue to use Medicaid. > > Conservatives need for patients to have skin in the game, and we also need for our system to continue to be the most advanced and innovative. That’s why the single payer model of everything being free at the point of service and price controls doesn’t suit us. This is close to what I support. A catastrophic plan plus a Health Savings Account. The HSA would be subsidized on a sliding scale based on income. Yearly checkups and other preventive care would be covered without needing to dip into the HSA. This could actually completely replace Medicaid and Medicare plus all private insurance. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/816 "2016-02-10T01:24:18Z")
Of course everyone has to have skin in the game. We’re talking about health care, here. The skin everyone has in the game is their actual literal skin, together with all of its contents. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/817 "2016-02-10T01:37:22Z")
Uhhhh…no. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/818 "2016-02-10T01:49:34Z")
This “skin in the game” stuff is silly. The fear is that people will use too many health care resources if they don’t have to pay anything out of pocket for them? We’re talking about doctor visits here, not giving away free ice cream. Most people avoid getting medical care even when cost isn’t an issue. The country isn’t going to be driven to bankruptcy by people eager to get medically unnecessary colonoscopies. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/819 "2016-02-10T02:31:34Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > This “skin in the game” stuff is silly. The fear is that people will use too many health care resources if they don’t have to pay anything out of pocket for them? We’re talking about doctor visits here, not giving away free ice cream. Most people avoid getting medical care even when cost isn’t an issue. The country isn’t going to be driven to bankruptcy by people eager to get medically unnecessary colonoscopies. Unfortunately I think your faith in your fellow human is misplaced: [http://m.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Unnecessary-calls-burden-EMS-2075436.php](http://m.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Unnecessary-calls-burden-EMS-2075436.php) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2016, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754/820 "2016-02-10T03:06:37Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Unfortunately I think your faith in your fellow human is misplaced: > > [http://m.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Unnecessary-calls-burden-EMS-2075436.php](http://m.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Unnecessary-calls-burden-EMS-2075436.php) So damn lame. You know, you probably could have spent some time looking and found how co-pays lower frivolous medical visits. Instead, you are lazy as shit and find some article that is heavy on anecdotes and includes “difficult to discern how much abuse” there is. And that many people use emergency services because they aren’t covered by insurance. Awesome job dude. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-bernie-sanders-d-vt-campaign-for-potus-thread/718754.md?page=42)