# 2016 Formula One **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 18, 2016, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-formula-one/749467 "2016-03-18T23:45:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-formula-one/749467/201 "2016-11-29T20:37:25Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > I wouldn’t suggest even trying to eliminate the turbulence behind the car, but you can limit the turbulence behind the car (I’ve spent a few minutes reading up on measuring turbulence just now). You measure the turbulence of the air in front of the car in an agreed wind tunnel, and measure it behind it. If it’s more turbulent upon exit than the rules allow, it’s not allowed. You can’t realistically limit how much money the teams spend on fidding with aerodynamics, the shape of the car’s body and suspension can always be used for downforce even if you could come up with a meaningful definition of a wing. You can realistically limit the dirty air coming off of the car and affecting the other competitors. > This would still allow downforce, wings (if you can manage it within the spec) and technical innovation, but would limit its effect on the other cars. This would allow the car pursuing to be able to close and pass more easily. I don’t see how that wouldn’t amount to more exciting racing, providing that the teams could compete under this aerodynamic regime. Since they can under the current regime, I don’t see why this would be any worse. That’d be awfully tough to manage. As it is, a team knows that their car is legal before they start to build it. Then they spend millions to build it and bring it to the first test session; maybe it’ll suck, but at least they know they can race it and try to improve it. If the car has to pass a wind tunnel test to be allowed to race, what happens to the teams that fail? Even if they have the money to build a new car, they may not have the time. And one reason I’ve heard that the teams don’t want to give up wings is that it would give them less advertising space to sell to sponsors. Under a wingless formula teams might have to get by with lower budgets. > [@scabpicker](#): > > You have to remember, straightaway speed is dependent on other things, too: how early you can begin the drag race out of the corner, and at what speed you’re going when you start it. That’s dependent on the entry and steady-state speed through the corner, and how much your available downforce is preventing you from losing traction when you floor it. True, you’d have less speed coming out of the corners, and less traction, but I think the top speeds would still be so high that they’d leave all the current chicanes in place. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Possibly. But his qualifying times were close enough to Hamilton’s that I think he _was_ trying to win about as hard as he would have anyway. It’s easy to say that he perhaps didn’t fight Verstappen as hard as he could have, but there was no reason for him to avoid tangling with Hamilton and the safest way to run a race is from the front. I’m sure Rosberg would have loved to out-qualify Hamilton in any of the last four races, and to lead from the start; but once that didn’t happen he didn’t press nearly as hard as he could have to get ahead. In the last race, he came in for tires on the lap after Hamilton did. Nico was content to just cover Lewis’s moves rather than take a risk that might put him ahead. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-formula-one/749467/202 "2016-11-30T00:58:23Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > That’d be awfully tough to manage. As it is, a team knows that their car is legal before they start to build it. Then they spend millions to build it and bring it to the first test session; maybe it’ll suck, but at least they know they can race it and try to improve it. If the car has to pass a wind tunnel test to be allowed to race, what happens to the teams that fail? Even if they have the money to build a new car, they may not have the time. They _think_ it is legal before they start. They could actually finish the race, and be disqualified because they wore too much off the plank on the bottom of the car. It’s happened. All of the teams already use wind tunnels and CFD, and can measure the amount of turbulence their design will make before they take it to be certified by the FIA. Like with ground clearance and the plank, they’ll eventually know not to push it. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > And one reason I’ve heard that the teams don’t want to give up wings is that it would give them less advertising space to sell to sponsors. Under a wingless formula teams might have to get by with lower budgets. I hadn’t thought about that. But, this wouldn’t necessarily be a wingless formula, depending on how turbulent the air behind the car is allowed to be. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > True, you’d have less speed coming out of the corners, and less traction, but I think the top speeds would still be so high that they’d leave all the current chicanes in place. Again, you’d have less speed going into and in the middle of the corners too. As you pointed out, they’d have to start breaking earlier. That’s not just because of their potentially higher speed, but because there’d be less downforce keeping the tires from locking. It seems that slower in, slower out, breaking earlier would amount to a much lower top speed. However, I know bupkis about really designing F1 tracks, and it would totally depend on how turbulent they allowed the air to be behind the car. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-formula-one/749467/203 "2016-11-30T03:35:25Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > All of the teams already use wind tunnels and CFD, and can measure the amount of turbulence their design will make before they take it to be certified by the FIA. Like with ground clearance and the plank, they’ll eventually know not to push it. They’d learn not to push it? I think they’d push it for every millimeter they could get, just like they do now. Teams would take their own measurements in their own wind tunnels, using every trick they could think of; wait until a stormy day when the air pressure is low so the turbulence would be minimized. Then they’d squabble with the FIA about how it passed their test so it should be allowed to run. > [@](#): > > Again, you’d have less speed going into and in the middle of the corners too. As you pointed out, they’d have to start breaking earlier. That’s not just because of their potentially higher speed, but because there’d be less downforce keeping the tires from locking. It seems that slower in, slower out, breaking earlier would amount to a much lower top speed. However, I know bupkis about really designing F1 tracks, and it would totally depend on how turbulent they allowed the air to be behind the car. Take the wings off a car and the top speed will go up; it’s just a question of how long a straightaway a wingless car needs to make up the speed deficit it has coming out of the last corner. I remember watching races at the old Hockenheimring; teams would make special wings just for that track. They looked like they’d rather run with no wings at all. My gut tells me they’d still want chicanes in some places to keep the speeds down and make the races safer. Good lord, can you imagine the speeds through the Curva Grande at Monza if there wasn’t a chicane before it? And there’s not much runoff room there. It does make me wonder why they’re so wedded to the current formula, though. I understand keeping the cars open-wheel. Apart from that, wings, engine size, tire width, everything could be fair game. While they’ve tweaked things a lot over the years (and significant changes are coming for next year), it seems like the basic recipe is the same as it was 40 years ago. The Powers That Be must think that what they’re doing works. Considering how the sport has grown, it’s hard to argue with them. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-formula-one/749467/204 "2016-11-30T09:23:00Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > They’d learn not to push it? I think they’d push it for every millimeter they could get, just like they do now. Teams would take their own measurements in their own wind tunnels, using every trick they could think of; wait until a stormy day when the air pressure is low so the turbulence would be minimized. Then they’d squabble with the FIA about how it passed their test so it should be allowed to run. I was meaning that it would be a hard number, like the millimeters left on the plank. They’ve learned how to manage ground clearance under the car to where it’s rare for anyone to be disqualified for it. I can’t see how they’d find managing turbulence behind the car as long as they’re given a clear method of how it is to be measured. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Take the wings off a car and the top speed will go up; it’s just a question of how long a straightaway a wingless car needs to make up the speed deficit it has coming out of the last corner. I remember watching races at the old Hockenheimring; teams would make special wings just for that track. They looked like they’d rather run with no wings at all. Well, there was no requirement for any team to run a wing after 1967, but they all have. They certainly minimize drag at the faster circuits, but the wings still provide traction. A light car will have problems putting the power to the ground without them. Even dragsters that have no corners to deal with use wings to provide traction while accelerating in a straight line. Streamliners need very long distances to reach high speed. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > My gut tells me they’d still want chicanes in some places to keep the speeds down and make the races safer. Good lord, can you imagine the speeds through the Curva Grande at Monza if there wasn’t a chicane before it? And there’s not much runoff room there. Depending on how much the rule changes restricted the aero, we could conceivably end up with speeds from before they put in the chicanes. Monza didn’t get them before wings came into the picture, and the ones that are there often seem to cause crashes. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > It does make me wonder why they’re so wedded to the current formula, though. I understand keeping the cars open-wheel. Apart from that, wings, engine size, tire width, everything could be fair game. While they’ve tweaked things a lot over the years (and significant changes are coming for next year), it seems like the basic recipe is the same as it was 40 years ago. The Powers That Be must think that what they’re doing works. Considering how the sport has grown, it’s hard to argue with them. Well, there’s inertia and the fact that the teams have sunk cost in the existing formulas. It’d probably be best to make any changes gradually, at any rate. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-formula-one/749467/205 "2016-11-30T15:05:12Z")
Yeah, wings are just not going away. The fact is, F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of the sport, and like most sports it’s less chaotic - and therefore less exciting - at the top than in lower tiers. If you want lots of overtaking, watch touring cars or NASCAR. I personally think the DRS system has done enough to moderate the effects of running in dirty air. I am concerned that next year’s bigger-wing regulations might change that, but in theory they should also increase the relative utility of DRS. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-formula-one/749467/206 "2016-11-30T17:04:07Z")
I don’t think I was proposing that wings would necessarily go away, I was proposing a way to limit the effect of the aero package on the following car. If that would allow them to move from wings to aerodynamic effects that may have some more actual real-world benefit in them, all the better. But my original intention is to make what’s supposed to be the pinnacle of the sport less of a parade. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-formula-one/749467/207 "2016-12-02T13:30:29Z")
Nico Rosberg retires. > **[Nico Rosberg retires from Formula 1 after winning world championship](https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/10680196/nico-rosberg-retires-from-formula-1-after-winning-world-championship)** > > 2016 world champion Nico Rosberg has sensationally retired from Formula 1 with immediate effect. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-formula-one/749467/208 "2016-12-02T13:54:45Z")
Mind = blown ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-formula-one/749467/209 "2016-12-02T14:39:07Z")
Did _not_ see this coming. But it makes sense. Having a daughter has obviously changed him and his priorities, and he basically admitted that he doesn’t want to make the sacrifices he did this year to win another championship. I’ve never cared for him, even though he’s the sort of driver I love - not as naturally gifted as some, but able to make up the difference with hard work, car setup and preparation. I’ve suddenly gained tremendous respect for him, though; he set a goal, he made it, and walked away at the pinnacle of the sport. Good for him. Meanwhile, a dozen drivers are frantically calling their agents to find out how to get released from their current contracts. Hulkenberg would have been the ideal replacement but he’s signed a multiyear deal with Renault, so it will probably be Wehrlein if McLaren won’t release Button. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-formula-one/749467/210 "2016-12-02T14:58:33Z")
I want to see Perez in the seat for some reason; I’ve been really impressed with the progress he’s made the past few years, and looking down the grid at the Mercedes powered cars, he’s the driver I’d most like to see challenge Lewis. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-formula-one/749467/211 "2016-12-02T15:04:21Z")
Perez isn’t good enough. He’s ultra-smooth and can make his tyres last an age, but he doesn’t have the qualifying speed to really challenge Lewis. Perez never qualified any higher than sixth; Hulkenberg was in fifth twice and even had one front row start. Hulkenberg outqualified Perez 12-9 this year overall and would have outscored him if not for his incredibly bad luck. In races both finished, they were 8-8 head to head. In any event, Force India is not going to let Perez leave after already losing Hulkenberg. At least, not without some ridiculous compensation package from Mercedes like a five-year guaranteed engine supply deal. Bottas might actually be a candidate for the seat. He’s one of Mercedes’ program drivers and Williams could leverage a lot of money and/or technical assistance out of a deal. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-formula-one/749467/212 "2016-12-02T15:13:33Z")
Carlos Sainz makes a lot of sense, too. There is essentially nowhere for him to go at Red Bull with Ricciardo and Verstappen likely to be the main team’s driver lineup for two or three years. On the other hand, he’d be a better fit at Ferrari, which doesn’t like to run two top drivers. He’s the perfect #2 - quick, but not quick enough to challenge for a title, but incredibly consistent. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-formula-one/749467/213 "2016-12-02T15:19:27Z")
My sources say that Perez was ahead 9-8 in races they both finished. He also led more laps despite the inferior qualifying performance. Yes, his qualifying needs to improve, but he’s plenty quick once the race starts and he’s gobs more interesting to watch than Hulkenberg. Bottas does seem to be the logical choice but he’s just too nice. Mercedes needs someone who’s going to stand up to Lewis. eta: In any case, I think it’s fair to say that this is pretty exciting – everyone who has a realistic shot already has a contract for next year, so pretty much everyone is on the table. Alonso? Vettel? Shit, Verstappen? Why not! ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Girlfriend](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.girlfriend/32/193_2.png) [@Dr.Girlfriend](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Girlfriend)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-formula-one/749467/214 "2016-12-02T17:24:35Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Bottas might actually be a candidate for the seat. He’s one of Mercedes’ program drivers and Williams could leverage a lot of money and/or technical assistance out of a deal. I’d like to see this! 🙂 I’m glad I’m not the only one who didn’t see Rosberg retiring coming. I’ll admit I hadn’t been paying that much attention the last few weeks of the season and I wondered if I missed something. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-formula-one/749467/215 "2016-12-02T17:26:33Z")
Ricciardo as a long shot? Red Bull may well think they’ve hit the motherlode with Verstappen so perhaps could be tempted. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-formula-one/749467/216 "2016-12-02T18:50:08Z")
I wonder if Massa or Button would be tempted if Mercedes came calling. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-formula-one/749467/217 "2016-12-02T19:38:13Z")
I totally did not see it coming, either. But it makes more sense when you realize his dad did largely the same thing, retiring from F1 shortly after his child was born. Still, wow. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-formula-one/749467/218 "2016-12-03T17:41:40Z")
So much for my theory. 😃 > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I wonder if Massa or Button would be tempted if Mercedes came calling. You bet they would! I wonder how long till Nico wants to come back? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-formula-one/749467/219 "2016-12-03T17:47:57Z")
I’d like to see Kamui Kobayashi given a chance. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2016, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-formula-one/749467/220 "2016-12-04T02:52:05Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I’d like to see Kamui Kobayashi given a chance. Nah. Need to bring Ralf Schumacher back, stick him in the best car of the field and see if he can do what his brother did. Michael Jordan, maybe? He needs work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-formula-one/749467.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-formula-one/749467.md?page=12)