# 2016 UK Conservative Party Leadership Election Discussion **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 29, 2016, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-uk-conservative-party-leadership-election-discussion/758667 "2016-06-29T02:27:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-uk-conservative-party-leadership-election-discussion/758667/81 "2016-07-05T19:31:56Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Anyone who thinks that they didn’t know exactly what they were doing needs to be hit with the clue-stick. The camera’s pointing straight at Clarke FFS! In the newsroom at Sky News, with microphones still attached. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-uk-conservative-party-leadership-election-discussion/758667/82 "2016-07-05T19:40:43Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > He’s 76. I’m not talking about his age, I’m talking about how he resembles Sir Les Patterson ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-uk-conservative-party-leadership-election-discussion/758667/83 "2016-07-05T20:34:42Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > I’m not talking about his age, I’m talking about how he resembles Sir Les Patterson At that age, if you’re still living you’re doing alright. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-uk-conservative-party-leadership-election-discussion/758667/84 "2016-07-05T22:00:08Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > At that age, if you’re still living you’re doing alright. It’s quite an impressive shade of ruddy he’s got going on though, you must admit. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2016, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-uk-conservative-party-leadership-election-discussion/758667/85 "2016-07-05T22:50:22Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > If people don’t want to vote for a candidate committed to “remain” then they can vote UKIP. That’s true only if that’s the only, or dominant, issue to decide on, right? Which, under the circumstances, maybe it is. Would any other platform items matter? And will it even be possible to vote UKIP without Farage? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-uk-conservative-party-leadership-election-discussion/758667/86 "2016-07-06T00:24:15Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > That’s true only if that’s the only, or dominant, issue to decide on, right? Which, under the circumstances, maybe it is. Well, no. If a party wins a majority of the seats in a general election, it has a mandate for every explicit commitment in its published manifesto. But, as you say, it’s academic. I don’t think there’s going to be an early general election, but if there is it will absolutely positively definitely be an election about the EU, and the UK’s relationship thereto. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And will it even be possible to vote UKIP without Farage? As long as they run candidates, it will be possible to vote for them. It doesn’t matter who the party leader is. And, if either or both of the major parties is running on a campaign to seek a mandate to supersede the referendum outcome, it’s a racing certainty that UKIP will be running candidates. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-uk-conservative-party-leadership-election-discussion/758667/87 "2016-07-06T09:11:29Z")
> [@DeptfordX](#): > > “Mr Farrage. Now your entire campaign has been revealed to be lies and the UK faces disaster. Do you feel any responsibility for this?” > > _“Sorry, I’m a private citizen now. It’s nothing to do with me.”_ He’s still an MEP. And an embarassment to this country, as [his recent grandstanding demonstrated](http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/29/eu-health-commissioner-explains-farage-facepalm-vytenis-andriukaitis). I must admit that Ken Clarke’s “slip” amused me greatly, although the fact that his views on the candidates and mine largely align certainly helped. It’s good to know that I’m not the only one filled with horror at the prospect of Gove as PM. And it’s worth noting that the UK is on the cusp of getting its second female Prime Minister (probably May but possibly Leadsom), just ahead of the US’s likely election of its first female President. Again - I’m not a fan of May but the only way women can rise to that level these days is by being “difficult”. Here’s to “difficult women”. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-uk-conservative-party-leadership-election-discussion/758667/88 "2016-07-06T09:55:52Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Again - I’m not a fan of May but the only way women can rise to that level these days is by being “difficult”. May also has charm and steel and talent and judgement. The same criteria, though, also apply to men. As an aside, this seems to be a fundamental difference between Left and Right over here: the Right believe in equality of opportunity whereas the Left believe in equality of result. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-uk-conservative-party-leadership-election-discussion/758667/89 "2016-07-06T10:29:20Z")
Did I just eulogise _Teresa May_? I feel dirty. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-uk-conservative-party-leadership-election-discussion/758667/90 "2016-07-06T10:44:17Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > As an aside, this seems to be a fundamental difference between Left and Right over here: the Right believe in equality of opportunity whereas the Left believe in equality of result. By gender, perhaps, but certainly not by many other factors, unless you mean in the sense popularised by a certain Anatole France quote. > [@Quartz](#): > > Did I just eulogise _Teresa May_? I feel dirty. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-uk-conservative-party-leadership-election-discussion/758667/91 "2016-07-06T12:47:15Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > By gender, perhaps, but certainly not by many other factors, unless you mean in the sense popularised by a certain Anatole France quote. I disagree. Look at Margaret Thatcher, daughter of a grocer. Look at Michael Gove, adopted son of a fish processor. Look at Stephen Crabb, brought up by parents on benefits. John Major was a bank clerk. Teresa May was largely state-educated. And so on. The Cameron era was a throw-back to the grandees of old. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-uk-conservative-party-leadership-election-discussion/758667/92 "2016-07-06T13:18:23Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I disagree. Look at Margaret Thatcher, daughter of a grocer. Look at Michael Gove, adopted son of a fish processor. Look at Stephen Crabb, brought up by parents on benefits. John Major was a bank clerk. Teresa May was largely state-educated. And so on. The Cameron era was a throw-back to the grandees of old. My point exactly. The era where the welfare state supported the working class enough to allow social mobility is over, thanks to those “grandees” who have been setting fire to every ladder out of poverty (unless you’re a footballer or pop star). And they’re following in the footsteps of Mrs Thatcher who actively scorned the poor and worked hard to make their lot harder. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-uk-conservative-party-leadership-election-discussion/758667/93 "2016-07-06T21:00:54Z")
Umm… Stephen Crabb is a modern example. Anyway, would Dopers care to consider the Scottish angle? No, not Sturgeon, but that Blair, Brown, and Cameron are all Scots; so would a fourth Scot in the form of Gove be one Scot too far? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-uk-conservative-party-leadership-election-discussion/758667/94 "2016-07-06T21:28:58Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Anyway, would Dopers care to consider the Scottish angle? No, not Sturgeon, but that Blair, Brown, and Cameron are all Scots; so would a fourth Scot in the form of Gove be one Scot too far? Cameron has a Scottish name and is of Scots descent, but he’s not a Scot and doesn’t identify as such. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2016, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-uk-conservative-party-leadership-election-discussion/758667/95 "2016-07-06T23:34:25Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Michael Gove: > > After the formation of the Coalition Government in 2010, Gove was appointed Secretary of State for Education. Gove sought to expand the academies programme introduced by the previous Labour Government. At its 2013 conference, Gove was criticised by the National Association of Head Teachers, whose members condemned the “climate of bullying, fear and intimidation” they said he had created during his time as Education Secretary, and passed a vote of no confidence in his policies. Votes of no confidence were also passed by the Association of Teachers and Lecturers, National Union of Teachers and NASUWT at their conferences in 2013 He also allowed qualified US and Australian teachers apply for QTS in an effort to increase the number of teachers in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-uk-conservative-party-leadership-election-discussion/758667/96 "2016-07-07T00:13:35Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I disagree. Look at Margaret Thatcher, daughter of a grocer. Look at Michael Gove, adopted son of a fish processor. Look at Stephen Crabb, brought up by parents on benefits. John Major was a bank clerk. Teresa May was largely state-educated. And so on. The Cameron era was a throw-back to the grandees of old. Out-of-touch David Cameron will pack Parliament with an elite gang of 21 Old Etonians after the election, we can reveal. A Sunday Mirror investigation of Conservative candidates tipped to win seats shows almost HALF went to private schools. And Cameron has loaded his list of chosen candidates with old boys from his own exclusive school – £28,851-a-year Eton College. The number of old Etonians in David Cameron’s inner circle is ‘preposterous’, said Education Secretary Michael Gove yesterday. The dominance of one school in public life did not exist in any other country and its continuation in Britain was ‘ridiculous’, he argued. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-uk-conservative-party-leadership-election-discussion/758667/97 "2016-07-07T09:07:59Z")
And so? As I said, the Cameron era was a throw-back to the grandees of old. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-uk-conservative-party-leadership-election-discussion/758667/98 "2016-07-07T09:52:35Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Michael Gove: > > After the formation of the Coalition Government in 2010, Gove was appointed Secretary of State for Education. Gove sought to expand the academies programme introduced by the previous Labour Government. At its 2013 conference, Gove was criticised by the National Association of Head Teachers, whose members condemned the “climate of bullying, fear and intimidation” they said he had created during his time as Education Secretary, and passed a vote of no confidence in his policies. Votes of no confidence were also passed by the Association of Teachers and Lecturers, National Union of Teachers and NASUWT at their conferences in 2013 A flashback to Gove with his Education hat on this week, as the media rolled footage of him touting the excellence of Durand Academy back in 2014, the first government-funded boarding school under the new academies system as part of a story about “[serious concerns](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-36705169)” about the governance and money management of said Durand Academy. Short version: the Durand people set up separate corporate entities to provide various services to the school, then effectively used the school to funnel public money earmarked for education to the private entities in a rather dubious manner. Who could have seen that happening? Certainly not Gove! > [@Quartz](#): > > Umm… Stephen Crabb is a modern example. Yes, let’s talk about Stephen Crabb. From his Wiki page: > [@](#): > > Crabb has said that his early experiences informed his views on welfare: “The most powerful thing to me, looking back, is the way that my mother went through a crisis in her life and became welfare dependent. She started working just a few hours each week, increasing her hours and then moving to a position where with extra training she was able to move into full-time work, become a car owner, and reach full economic independence.” He also said: “I was brought up in a home where a huge amount of emphasis was put on work…so work and education as routes out of poverty were drummed into us”. It’s a good story, true. Of course, now that benefits have been cut back dramatically, would there have been enough of a safety net for his mother to have hung on long enough to work her way out of poverty? Or would they have been made homeless and dependent on food banks, as hundreds of thousands now are? When his father was injured and went on invalidity benefit, would their situation have been improved by having an independent private contractor decide he was skiving and cut off his benefit? Would the family have climbed out of poverty faster while working on zero-hour contracts? As I said before, the Conservatives have made it much harder to be poor in this country, and that includes those who started out poor themselves. No one is saying that hard work isn’t required, but throwing up more obstacles on the path out of poverty is not promoting “equality of opportunity”. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-uk-conservative-party-leadership-election-discussion/758667/99 "2016-07-07T10:25:33Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Short version: the Durand people set up separate corporate entities to provide various services to the school, then effectively used the school to funnel public money earmarked for education to the private entities in a rather dubious manner. Who could have seen that happening? Certainly not Gove! Given that they were caught, someone obviously did foresee the possibility of fraud. > [@](#): > > As I said before, the Conservatives have made it much harder to be poor in this country, and that includes those who started out poor themselves. And I do not disagree. Remember that I had a period of extended poverty myself. But he’s still a self-made man. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2016, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-uk-conservative-party-leadership-election-discussion/758667/100 "2016-07-07T14:41:42Z")
Here’s the NYT on how the Brexit aftermath has revealed the fault lines of the incestuous British political class: [British Politics Gives a Sense of Government by Old School Chums - The New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/08/world/europe/britain-brexit-elite-politics.html?emc=eta1&_r=0) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-uk-conservative-party-leadership-election-discussion/758667.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2016-uk-conservative-party-leadership-election-discussion/758667.md?page=6)