# 2017 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [November 22, 2016, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2017-baseball-hall-of-fame-voting-thread/772749 "2016-11-22T17:10:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2017-baseball-hall-of-fame-voting-thread/772749/41 "2016-12-03T04:42:39Z")
> [@Zyanthia](#): > > I almost forgave the PED users, so I’m weakening, maybe I’ll be able to bring myself to vote for them next year. If they were guaranteed to have comments on their placards stating “Career enhanced pharmaceutically”, I think I would be more willing to vote for them. Funny…in last year’s thread I said I ALMOST caved on PED users. This year I did. Just getting too hard to separate what’s real from the BS. ---
**Author:** ![mikeargo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/858c86/32.png) [@mikeargo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikeargo)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2017-baseball-hall-of-fame-voting-thread/772749/42 "2016-12-04T15:58:48Z")
Clemens Raines Pudge ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2016, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2017-baseball-hall-of-fame-voting-thread/772749/43 "2016-12-04T16:33:02Z")
> [@mikeargo](#): > > Clemens > Raines > Pudge So other than not voting for the requests minimum of 5, can I ask why Clemens and not Bonds (or Bagwell)? ---
**Author:** ![mikeargo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/858c86/32.png) [@mikeargo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikeargo)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2017-baseball-hall-of-fame-voting-thread/772749/44 "2016-12-04T21:19:12Z")
Sorry, my fault. Should have read more carefully. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2017-baseball-hall-of-fame-voting-thread/772749/45 "2016-12-05T14:07:56Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > So other than not voting for the requests minimum of 5, can I ask why Clemens and not Bonds (or Bagwell)? Someone else answered above. > [@cmkeller](#): > > … > Probably because, like me (you posted this before I voted), they find the steroid evidence against Clemens a lot less convincing than that against Bonds. To be honest, at this point I’ve forgotten a lot of players that were tied to PEDs and what exactly the evidence was. I know McNamee was the key guy in accusing Clemens, but the details escape me. And since for my own ballot I decided to vote for PED users, I don’t really care anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2017-baseball-hall-of-fame-voting-thread/772749/46 "2016-12-05T17:49:21Z")
> [@mikeargo](#): > > Sorry, my fault. Should have read more carefully. My question still stands though - why vote for Clemens but not Bonds? ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2017-baseball-hall-of-fame-voting-thread/772749/47 "2017-01-20T16:13:12Z")
Here’s how we compared to the actual voting, based on the info in the hot stove thread. We, obviously, elected nobody. The writers elected Bagwell, Raines and Pudge Rodriguez. We like Manny Ramirez a hell of a lot more than the writers. They like Trevor Hoffman way, way more than we do. ```auto Player SDMB BBWAA Jeff Bagwell 67.2% 86.2% Roger Clemens 67.2% 54.1% Tim Raines 65.5% 86.0% Ivan Rodriguez 65.5% 76.0% Manny Ramirez 60.3% 23.8% Barry Bonds 56.9% 53.8% Vlad Guerrero 44.8% 71.7% Curt Schilling 43.1% 45.0% Edgar Martinez 39.7% 58.6% Mike Mussina 34.5% 51.8% Larry Walker 29.3% 21.9% Trevor Hoffman 19.0% 74.0% Gary Sheffield 15.5% 13.3% Sammy Sosa 15.5% 8.6% Jeff Kent 12.1% 16.7% Lee Smith 12.1% 34.2% Fred McGriff 10.3% 21.7% Jorge Posada 8.6% 3.8% Tim Wakefield 6.9% 0.2% Billy Wagner 1.7% 10.2% Mike Cameron 1.7% 0.0% Edgar Renteria 1.7% 0.5% Arthur Rhodes 1.7% 0.0% Casey Blake 0.0% 0.0% Pat Burrell 0.0% 0.0% Orlando Cabrera 0.0% 0.0% J.D. Drew 0.0% 0.0% Carlos Guillen 0.0% 0.0% Derek Lee 0.0% 0.0% Melvin Mora 0.0% 0.0% Magglio Ordonez 0.0% 0.7% Freddy Sanchez 0.0% 0.0% Matt Stairs 0.0% 0.0% Jason Varitek 0.0% 0.5% ``` ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2017-baseball-hall-of-fame-voting-thread/772749/48 "2017-01-20T17:13:21Z")
Munch: > [@](#): > > My question still stands though - why vote for Clemens but not Bonds? I can only speak for myself, but I find the evidence that Bonds did steroids overwhelming - the whole BALCO investigation is well-documented. The evidence against Clemens is mainly the word of Brian McNamee, who has credibility issues, and when Clemens was sued for perjury over his denial of taking steroids, he was completely acquitted. That’s good enough for me to take him out the “cheater” list and vote for him. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2017-baseball-hall-of-fame-voting-thread/772749/49 "2017-01-20T17:14:56Z")
Thanks for that table, Barkis. I am still incredulous we could not elect Ivan Rodriguez. But we’re righter than the BBWAA on a lot of those guys. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2017-baseball-hall-of-fame-voting-thread/772749/50 "2017-01-20T18:57:46Z")
PEDs was the only possible reason I could think to not vote for Pudge, and I had forgotten that he was even tied to them. But there is far from overwhelming evidence that used at all. So I also can’t understand how we didn’t elect him. It’s also interesting to track guys who have lost votes over the years, like Lee Smith and Curt Schilling. Schilling lost votes almost certainly because he says stupid shit. But Lee Smith…I don’t get it. He peaked at over 50% in 2012 and now he’s under 35%. I especially don’t get it because Trevor Hoffman was a mere point away from being elected. Surprisingly, it seems the writers used to give a little more credit to relief pitchers like Rollie Fingers and Bruce Sutter. Sutter is perhaps the worst player ever voted in by the writers. But he’s in nonetheless. I have no doubt Mariano Riviera will be elected, but he’s basically the Babe Ruth of relievers. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2017-baseball-hall-of-fame-voting-thread/772749/51 "2017-01-20T20:00:25Z")
That’s actually an interesting question; who’s the worst Hall of Famer ever? Among position players, I believe the lowest-ranked player by WAR (excluding people voted in for being managers or builders, like Bucky Harris) is Tommy McCarthy, a 19th century player so oh well. He was named by the Old Timers Committee so far back it was called the “Old Timers Committee,” they didn’t know. If you get past 19th century players then, it’s Lloyd Waner, at 24 WAR. I think Waner is probably the correct answer to the question “Who’s the worst position player in the Hall of Fame?” His career as a whole is unremarkable and he never had anything approaching a truly great season. He got off to a very good start but regressed after an injury in his fourth season. For pitchers, last in WAR is… sure enough, Bruce Sutter, just behind ol; Rollie, actually - again, discounting three guys under him for really being a hitter (Ruth) mostly playing in the Negro Leagues (Paige) and an ump (O’Day.) So I guess we have to ask two questions: 1. Is Bruce Sutter worse than Lloyd Waner? I don’t think so. Sutter compiled the same WAR as Waner in a shorter career; he had a few seasons where he was more valuable than Waner ever was, and he did so against a higher level of competition. 2. Was Sutter worse than the worst starting pitchers, like Jesse Haines or Rube Marquard? In this regard I don’t know how to answer. Sutter was absolutely a BETTER pitcher than they were, but he didn’t pitch as much. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2017-baseball-hall-of-fame-voting-thread/772749/52 "2017-01-20T20:48:11Z")
To be fair, I specified that Sutter was perhaps the worst ever elected\* by the writers\*. Waner was voted in by the veterans’ committee. So were Haines and Marquard. The veterans’ committee, or old timers as they were, have elected some real duds in the HOF besides the aforementioned. Phil Rizzuto and Bill Mazeroski never came close to sniffing the HOF by the writers’ vote. I feel like the BBWAA had a hard time measuring pitchers from the 70s. Sutter and Fingers are the obvious guys that stand out. Goose Gossage and Catfish Hunter are suspect, as well. Hunter’s career ERA+ was 104. That’s astoundingly average. Look at a guy like Orel Hershiser, on the ballot 20 years after Hunter, he gets bounced off in just two years. And I think Orel had a much better case. For worst voted in by the BBWAA, I don’t think you can find a guy that tops Sutter. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2017-baseball-hall-of-fame-voting-thread/772749/53 "2017-01-20T21:01:15Z")
This is too interesting not to share. [http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=12754](http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=12754) Apparently, the most undeserving HOFer might be Rick Ferrell, who was basically elected as a misunderstanding. > [@](#): > > There were a couple of people that the Veterans Committee put in that… and I don’t want to pick on this guy, because he’s a wonderful person, but the election of Rick Ferrell—who wasn’t even the best player in his family—really irritated people. The Veterans Committee was putting people in left and right, and then Rick Ferrell, who was only on our ballot for three years and got three total votes, got in. He was a popular guy, and he was the farm director for the Tigers for many, many years, and the story I heard was that Jim Campbell had called a few of the Veterans Committee members and said, “Look, just don’t let him get shut out. Throw him a vote.” Well, the guy ended up getting nine votes, so he got elected. - Jack O’Connell, secretary-treasurer of the Baseball Writers Association of America ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2017, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2017-baseball-hall-of-fame-voting-thread/772749/54 "2017-01-21T01:22:32Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Thanks for that table, Barkis. > > I am still incredulous we could not elect Ivan Rodriguez. But we’re righter than the BBWAA on a lot of those guys. Maybe a few. But when there’s a good 10-12 deserving candidates and we manage to elect no-one, that’s pretty sad actually. No-one really even got close. ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2017, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2017-baseball-hall-of-fame-voting-thread/772749/55 "2017-01-21T07:47:39Z")
Taking this over from the Hot Stove thread: > [@markdash](#): > > Trevor Hoffman at 74%? > > Man, these HoF voters are clueless. I meant that it’s absurd Hoffman was a hair’s breadth away from making the HoF, and a gaggle of infinitely more qualified nominees had trouble even sniffing 50%. Curt Schilling is a repulsive douchebag and I disagree with almost everything that comes out of his mouth, but he’s miles more valuable than Hoffman and belongs in the HoF. And that’s just one example. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2017, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2017-baseball-hall-of-fame-voting-thread/772749/56 "2017-01-21T17:59:29Z")
> [@markdash](#): > > I meant that it’s absurd Hoffman was a hair’s breadth away from making the HoF, and a gaggle of infinitely more qualified nominees had trouble even sniffing 50%. > > Curt Schilling is a repulsive douchebag and I disagree with almost everything that comes out of his mouth, but he’s miles more valuable than Hoffman and belongs in the HoF. And that’s just one example. I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you about Hoffman, but it raises a broader issue: it feels like the voters are struggling to figure out how to evaluate the “worthiness” of closers, particularly in the last 20 years or so, when the CW became “you only use your closer in the 9th, and you never let him pitch more than an inning.” In the past 40 years of voting, there have been only four relief pitchers elected to the Hall (unless I’m missing something): Rollie Fingers (1992), Dennis Eckersley (2004), Bruce Sutter (2006), and Rich Gossage (2008). Hoffman came within a sniff this year, and seems destined to make it. And, of course, Mariano Rivera seems to be a mortal lock to be elected when he becomes eligible. And, as seen in just the discussion on this page: there are fans who question the worthiness of a lot of these players – Sutter, Fingers, and Hoffman just in the past few posts, and I’ve seen the same sort of discussion around Gossage. But, in their time, closers like Sutter, Fingers, and Gossage were all generally seen as being great players, and key contributors to their teams. Is it possible that there’ve only been a half-dozen relief pitchers in the past 40-50 years who are actually Hall-worthy? Or, even fewer? The role of the closer seems to be an extremely important one for teams, but is it that a closer’s role is so limited that those players simply don’t contribute enough to the success of their teams? (From that standpoint, perhaps closers in baseball are like kickers in the NFL, as far as evaluation for their Halls of Fame.) Or, is it that there needs to be some other sort of way to evaluate what they do, to decide what makes for a Hall-worthy relief pitche? ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2017, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2017-baseball-hall-of-fame-voting-thread/772749/57 "2017-01-21T21:21:19Z")
If I had 15 votes in this poll, I’d have voted for Hoffman and Smith. As I said before, career WAR is not a good way to measure closers. Riviera’s is over 50, but I don’t think anyone else is remotely close to that. Closers deserve their place in the HOF, but I think you just have to measure them against other closers. Not against outfielders, catchers or even starting pitchers. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2017-baseball-hall-of-fame-voting-thread/772749/58 "2017-01-22T03:39:45Z")
[QUOTE=kenobi 65;19938233In the past 40 years of voting, there have been only four relief pitchers elected to the Hall (unless I’m missing something): Rollie Fingers (1992), Dennis Eckersley (2004), Bruce Sutter (2006), and Rich Gossage (2008). Hoffman came within a sniff this year, and seems destined to make it. And, of course, Mariano Rivera seems to be a mortal lock to be elected when he becomes eligible.[/QUOTE] FTR, there’s a fifth reliever in the Hall: Hoyt Wilhelm (1985). ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2017-baseball-hall-of-fame-voting-thread/772749/59 "2017-01-22T08:46:25Z")
Closers have a place in the hall, but I worry that the pendulum is swinging too far in the other direction after years of relievers being ignored by voters and the Veterans Committee. I think one (or in rare situations, two) reliever per generation should be enshrined, and Mariano Rivera is that reliever. Rivera threw about 200 more innings than Hoffman, and thew more effectively as well (lower ERA-/FIP/etc). This is all moot because Hoffman is going to get in sooner rather than later, and I don’t necessarily fault people for thinking he’s Hall-worthy, but to vote him in over some of the actual all-time greats? That’s what bothers me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2017-baseball-hall-of-fame-voting-thread/772749.md?page=2)