# 2018 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot (With voting!) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [November 21, 2017, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-with-voting/802280 "2017-11-21T14:35:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-with-voting/802280/121 "2017-12-11T15:00:49Z")
Which criteria might that be? The “gee, he won 20 games, he must be great” standard? Trammell was a far better shortsop than Morris was a pitcher. His inclusion is a joke. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-with-voting/802280/122 "2017-12-11T15:17:13Z")
[These](https://baseballhall.org/hall-of-famers/bbwaa-rules-for-election). > [@](#): > > 1. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-with-voting/802280/123 "2017-12-11T15:22:54Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > That’s interesting trivia. I’m not going to hunt for a WS champ without a hall of famer, but I’m pretty sure the 1997 Florida Marlins will be such a team (unless one of these feckless panels backdoors Gary Sheffield.) Kevin Brown could be reconsidered by one of those committees as well. Very underrated, stats compare well to quite a few lower-tier HoFers. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-with-voting/802280/124 "2017-12-11T15:34:49Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [These](https://baseballhall.org/hall-of-famers/bbwaa-rules-for-election). Sounds right. Morris doesn’t meet the standard for any of those. ETA: I should have said Morris doesn’t make the grade on the first two, which renders the others irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-with-voting/802280/125 "2017-12-11T19:37:55Z")
I have to agree that Jack Morris does not belong in the HOF. I like the guy, but his stats are very pedestrian. Career ERA+ of 105. That is about as average as it gets. No Cy Young Awards, not even a runner up. There a heck of a lot of pitchers of that era that look like HOFers if Morris is the bar. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-with-voting/802280/126 "2017-12-11T19:43:57Z")
Elvis: > [@](#): > > The HOF ballot eliminates anyone who wasn’t good enough to stay in MLB for 10 years, which I suspect takes care of more scrub pitchers than scrub position players. Among the players who were good enough to make 10 years, aren’t pitchers underrepresented? Isn’t the prime for a pitcher typically shorter than for a hitter? All those are good points, I was simply responding from the standpoint of roster composition, which is where you were coming from. An MLB roster split 50-50 between pitchers and position players has 8 or 9 position players who are good enough to be full-time starters, plus only 4-5 scrubs, while the pitching half is 5 pitchers good enough to be in a regular rotation (and only the first and maybe the second are good enough to not be adequately replaced by a minor leaguer if necessary) and 1 or maybe 2 who are good enough to reliably dazzle for an inning a game, which leaves fully 50-75% of the pitching half of the roster as scrubs. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-with-voting/802280/127 "2017-12-11T20:14:22Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Sounds right. Morris doesn’t meet the standard for any of those. Not the first time this subject has been discussed here, but at least it’s the last. I do have to wonder, though, what you think all those baseball insiders on the committee could have been thinking, since any random fan is better informed. 😉 **cm** , to continue the thought, if almost all the good pitchers are starters: If a position player gets 4 or 5 times as much opportunity to excel as a starting pitcher (or more, considering that CG’s are unusual), shouldn’t a pitcher have 8/4 or 8/5 or more times as much chance to be on the ballot as a position player? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-with-voting/802280/128 "2017-12-11T20:21:59Z")
Even today starting pitchers perform more than position players. They may play in fewer games, but they perform far more in those games than position players do. In 2017, 29 starting pitchers faced at least 780 batters. No batter in the history of the major leagues has had 780 plate appearances in a season. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-with-voting/802280/129 "2017-12-11T20:30:12Z")
Okay, so are pitchers underrepresented on the HOF ballot, and among inductees? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-with-voting/802280/130 "2017-12-11T22:31:59Z")
Elvis: > [@](#): > > cm, to continue the thought, if almost all the good pitchers are starters: If a position player gets 4 or 5 times as much opportunity to excel as a starting pitcher (or more, considering that CG’s are unusual), shouldn’t a pitcher have 8/4 or 8/5 or more times as much chance to be on the ballot as a position player? I don’t think so - voters don’t compare pitchers to position players, they compare them to other pitchers. The ones who advance on the Hall of Fame ballot (pretty much anyone gets ON the ballot, if they’d been in the majors long enough), like the position players, are those who stood out head-and-shoulders among their own kind. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-with-voting/802280/131 "2017-12-11T23:16:28Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Not the first time this subject has been discussed here, but at least it’s the last. I do have to wonder, though, what you think all those baseball insiders on the committee could have been thinking, since any random fan is better informed. 😉 Since these committees made up of “insiders” also enshrined Rube Marquard, Bill Mazerowski and Phil Rizzuto, I hardly find that to be a compelling argument. Yes, I’m aware that the candidacy of Morris has been discussed on this board before. I’ve yet to see a logical case made for him to be counted among the best. I guess I’m not going to, either. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2017, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-with-voting/802280/132 "2017-12-11T23:35:20Z")
Blank Slate: > [@](#): > > I’ve yet to see a logical case made for him to be counted among the best. I guess I’m not going to, either. From an outsider’s perspective, I agree. But if a committee that includes George Brett, Rod Carew, Dave Winfield and Robin Yount (and it’s not possible that none of these four voted for Morris), four Hall-of-Fame level hitters who faced Morris for a reasonable stretch of playing time, feel that he was a Hall-of-Fame level opponent on the mound, I find it difficult to argue the point. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-with-voting/802280/133 "2017-12-12T00:57:49Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Blank Slate: > > From an outsider’s perspective, I agree. But if a committee that includes George Brett, Rod Carew, Dave Winfield and Robin Yount (and it’s not possible that none of these four voted for Morris), four Hall-of-Fame level hitters who faced Morris for a reasonable stretch of playing time, feel that he was a Hall-of-Fame level opponent on the mound, I find it difficult to argue the point. That’s a solid _ex post facto_ argument, even if the counter-argument is cronyism trumping unbiased judgement. I’d like to hear a statistics based case for a guy whose 1.78 SO/W was 479th all-time and who had the same OPS+ as Denny Neagle. What happens with the next panel? Or as Jay Jaffe puts it: > [@](#): > > Still, his election lowers the bar for Hall of Fame pitchers and serves as a slight to numerous contemporaries such as Bret Saberhagen, Dave Stieb, Dwight Gooden, Orel Hershiser and David Cone. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-with-voting/802280/134 "2017-12-12T03:21:33Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Blank Slate: > > From an outsider’s perspective, I agree. But if a committee that includes George Brett, Rod Carew, Dave Winfield and Robin Yount (and it’s not possible that none of these four voted for Morris), four Hall-of-Fame level hitters who faced Morris for a reasonable stretch of playing time, feel that he was a Hall-of-Fame level opponent on the mound, I find it difficult to argue the point. Being good at baseball doesn’t make one good at analyzing baseball. The whole process undermines the writers vote. You can argue Trammell deserved a fairer shake, but Jack Morris’s case was absolutely heard, and the writers decided he fell short. There is no new information or changing sentiment here. That a small group can override that once again lowers the hall’s standards. Also, you can’t seriously argue Mike Mussina wasn’t hall worthy now. There is just about nothing Morris was better at Mussina then and that includes postseason pitcher. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-with-voting/802280/135 "2017-12-12T04:45:03Z")
Hawkeyeop: > [@](#): > > Being good at baseball doesn’t make one good at analyzing baseball. No, but if you’ve batted in major league baseball for a significant period of time, and there was a select few pitchers who you always felt were guys you hated to face, that feeling holds more weight if you were good at hitting baseballs in general against average pitchers than if you were bad at hitting baseballs against all pitchers. It’s not “analysis.” By objective, dispassionate numbers, Jack Morris falls well short of Hall of Fame standards. But I’m willing to give voice to those who’ve stood in a batter’s box, looked sixty feet six inches in front of them, and said “Oh, crap, it’s him.” > [@](#): > > You can argue Trammell deserved a fairer shake, but Jack Morris’s case was absolutely heard, and the writers decided he fell short. How? They both got the same 15 years on the ballot, 13 of those years overlapping, so their cases were considered by pretty much the exact same voting bodies, with similarly analytic fan communities and media publishing pieces on their worthiness. I’m not saying Trammell isn’t more worthy than Morris, but certainly his case was no less heard than Morrris’s. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-with-voting/802280/136 "2017-12-12T17:52:06Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Okay, so are pitchers underrepresented on the HOF ballot, and among inductees? I think so. If my count is correct pitchers represent 30.7% of all players who are in the Hall of Fame primarily for accomplishments on the field as major leaguers. The number of pitchers on the ballot in any given year is somewhere between 20 and 30 percent. Pitchers shouldn’t be half the total, but 30 percent is way too low, it seems to me. ETA: Having said that, if you put in every pitcher better than Jack Morris, you’d have too many pitchers. Just skipping by a lot of guys with better analytical numbers, Andy Pettite is a no-brainer if Jack Morris is in. Pettite won more games, lost fewer, had a better ERA, and has a postseason resume as impressive as anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-with-voting/802280/137 "2018-01-20T20:43:53Z")
I saw this chart on Twitter last week. I thought it was fascinating, and fit in pretty well with the conversation going on. Not only are pitchers a little behind in representation, the modern era as a whole is. Now, things like Veteran Committee inductees and things drive up the population of older generations being represented, but I think that we tend to view current players with a bias towards our heroes of old. > ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-with-voting/802280/138 "2018-01-21T19:39:47Z")
Who still alive has Freddie Lindstrom as a hero? Guys like Alan Trammell ARE our heroes of old. The damage was done long ago. The guys who elected Chick Hafey just blew it. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-with-voting/802280/139 "2018-01-22T16:12:09Z")
So is it too strict now, or was it too lenient before? PEDs have obviously had a pretty significant impact on guys whose careers started in the 80s and 90s, too. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2018, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-with-voting/802280/140 "2018-01-22T17:47:12Z")
The PED thing is specifically too strict. It’s just silly to leave out Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, but they’ll be in. I think it clear that they were much too liberal in the past, just because I can rather easily name a whole bunch of really idiotic selections. Chick Hafey wasn’t as good a player as Shawn Green, Travis Jackson wasn’t nearly as good as Omar Vizquel, and Jim Bototmley wasn’t half the player Fred McGriff was. One could go on. You could argue that today’s selections are too strict beyond the really silly PED exclusions but I think it’s just normal to have a backlog of players, and it will eventually sort itself out and they’ll get Mike Mussina and Edgar Martinez in there, and some committee will name a few overlooked guys. What I cannot help but notice is that the Hall inducts two or three guys a year. Leaving out non-players: 2018: Morris, Trammell, plus BBWAA inductions 2017: Bagwell, Raines, Rodriguez 2016: Griffey, Piazza 2015: Biggio, Randy Johnson, Pedro, Smoltz 2014: Glavine, Maddux, Thomas, Torre It drops off a little after that but this strikes me as being a pretty correct clip of inductions. Historically the Hall of Fame has enshrined about two men per year of modern baseball, which kinda makes sense to me - maybe it’s on the low end. In the last while they’re averaging about four inductions a year, most aside from Morris very solid ones, which to me seems consistent with both keeping up with history and getting at the backlog. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-with-voting/802280.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-with-voting/802280.md?page=8)