# 2018 U.S. Open (tennis) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 7, 2018, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-u-s-open-tennis/820934 "2018-09-07T09:38:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-u-s-open-tennis/820934/81 "2018-09-10T13:34:39Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Certainly a good match and well done to them both but I’m afraid that because they were both men and the umpire was a woman then it…is…errrr, sexist or something. Unless there is a meta-narrative about the subjugation of women in a patriarchal construct then the world is not interested. LOL Since we want to be gender neutral in how we approach tennis and attack double standards, here’s a thought experiment: What would the #MeToo/#TimesUp movement have to say if a top male player had never even been suspended from tennis or made to take anger management classes after menacing a tiny older woman the way Serena did in 2009? What if that same top men’s player had also said those things about the Steubenville rape case? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-u-s-open-tennis/820934/82 "2018-09-10T15:20:47Z")
I think Serena’s case collapses once her coach contradicts her on the coaching-during-the-match violation. She was clearly upset about that, and this reaction led to the other problems. It turns out she was wrong, and Ramos was right. She bears the lion’s share of responsibility for what ensued. (Er, am I allowed to use “lion’s share” here?) ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-u-s-open-tennis/820934/83 "2018-09-10T18:01:25Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > If you think a ref in the NFL, NHL, rugby or football is penalizing players every time they here a player call them a bad word, you’re out of your friggen’ mind. It’s not too far from that in the NFL actually. Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalties can come from that behavior. It’s very common over the last handful of years. Maybe not every time but they can and do penalize players for it. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-u-s-open-tennis/820934/84 "2018-09-10T19:03:34Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I think that WP commentary is actually quite a measured and thoughtful take on this whole thing, and it’s changed my mind a little bit. Not because it changed what happened on the court, but because the author demonstrated that this particular umpire has been on the receiving end of similar language from male players in the past, without issuing a warning. I also tend to agree with the general principle (and not just in tennis) that the aim of the umpire should be to use a light touch, and to be as unobtrusive as possible. I hate it when baseball umpires blow little things out of all proportion in order to reinforce their authority over the players. > > I still think that, within the rules of the game, each individual warning was justified, but these sorts of rules should be enforced with at least a modicum of consistency if they are to have any real meaning. To be honest, I think the rule against coaching is stupid anyway, but it’s there, and if it’s going to be there, then it should be enforced equitably. Same with the rule about insults. > > I have a couple of quibbles, though: one with the WP article, and one with your interpretation of what’s going on here. > > From the article:Handed to her? Fuck that noise. Yes, it’s possible that Williams would have come back and won the match if not for the game penalty. Williams is an incredibly determined and skillful and competitive person, and she’s come back before. But anyone watching that match knows that Osaka was the better player on the night. She simply played the better tennis, and based on the actual tennis played on the actual court on the actual night, she deserved the trophy. By using the term “handed to her,” the WP writer makes it sound like she was on the verge of getting beaten, and only won because of the umpiring controversy. > > And your description of Williams’ comments as a “PG insult” misses the most important aspect of the exchange, IMO. The seriousness of the offense here is not (or, at least, should not be) based on whether she uses foul language; it’s the fact that she basically made a direct accusation of cheating. By calling the umpire a thief, the clear implication is that he’s made a deliberate effort to circumvent or ignore the rules and unfairly deprive Williams of an opportunity to win the match. It’s the equivalent of accusing a football umpire of being paid by the other team, or suggesting that he change into the other team’s uniform so that his biases are more clear. In just about every sport on the planet, a direct accusation, on the field, that the officials are cheats will get you a red card (or the equivalent); if that’s not how it usually goes in tennis, then tennis needs to get with the program. Re: “The seriousness of the offense here is not (or, at least, should not be) based on whether she uses foul language; it’s the fact that she basically made a direct accusation of cheating. By calling the umpire a thief, the clear implication is that he’s made a deliberate effort to circumvent or ignore the rules and unfairly deprive Williams of an opportunity to win the match.” This says it better than I could have, and bears repeating, I think. In the instances I’ve seen about Ramos and male players, he has been accused essentially of missing a call, or interpreting a rule incorrectly, not in intentionally trying to affect the outcome of a match. I’ve asked for examples where a man insulted Ramos’ integrity and character and DID NOT get a penalty on other social media, but didn’t get any. One more thing while I’m here: can we not stipulate that threatening to shove a ball down someone’s throat is at the very least, evidence that Serena has for at least once in her life been guilty of “low character”? And further, to accuse someone of being bigoted for calling into question that character, when quite frankly it’s been exhibited more than once, is simply ridiculous? ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-u-s-open-tennis/820934/85 "2018-09-10T19:33:14Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > So you’re OK with umpires being different in how they referee the match? > > Got it. > > That the coach was trying to ‘coach’ (which 100% of coaches in 100% of matches do) is irrelevant. The violation isn’t ‘coaches shall not coach’, it’s ‘players shall not receive coaching’. There zero evidence that Serena saw the coach - she was on the other side of the stadium ffs. The reason the rule is rarely enforced is precisely because it relies too much on inference to penalize the player for the coach’s actions. There is no way the umpire knew the player had received coaching - and as noted, I cannot think of another player less likely to be interested in getting coaching during a match. > > Given the context and precedent, there’s no way that violation should be called. Once he started that chain of events, he absolutely needs to be extra aware of the situation - which he created - before assessing the third violation. As has been pointed out, there is no requirement that the player actually receives the coaching. Therefore, the whole of this response can be ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-u-s-open-tennis/820934/86 "2018-09-10T19:38:54Z")
Hm, I watch a lot of tennis, and I know about the coaching rule. I just can’t remember ever seeing it invoked against a male player. I’ve rarely seen it invoked on anybody, and yet I’ve seen a lot of what really looks like coaching. But it’s a weird rule, because you have the player’s box. A lot of players look to their box after every point. Any gesture from the box could be a secret coaching signal. Thumbs up with the left hand means go for the opponent’s backhand? Nobody knows but the player. So, if coaching is absolutely not allowed, then the coaches should be made to watch the match from a spot where the player can’t see them. But then, as mentioned, there’s the player’s box. If a random audience member yells out “Go to the net!” it’s obviously not coaching, but if someone in the player’s box says it, it could be. It really seems more sensible, if you’re going to have this rule, to remove the coach rather than penalize the player. (Which has happened, I believe for a fairly young player who was coached by her dad, and her dad was removed, or banned. Something like that. But I don’t think anybody ever kicked out Uncle Tony.) ---
**Author:** ![icon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c6cbf5/32.png) [@icon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/icon)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-u-s-open-tennis/820934/87 "2018-09-10T23:34:57Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > No one has anything to say about the men’s final? > > While it was technically a straight set affair, the pivotal second set was one for the ages. I for one feel sorry for Pete Sampras, when he won his 14th Grand Slam in 2002, beating the previous record of 13, he probably did not think that within 20 years 3 players would equal or surpass his record… //i\ ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2018, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-u-s-open-tennis/820934/88 "2018-09-10T23:54:32Z")
> [@icon](#): > > I for one feel sorry for Pete Sampras, when he won his 14th Grand Slam in 2002, beating the previous record of 13, he probably did not think that within 20 years 3 players would equal or surpass his record… > > //i\ I remember that and I, too, thought Sampras was not only the all-time great, but perhaps would be for years to come. Is there someone to outshine Federer, Dojokovic, and Nadal? Someone who can do even more than they have? ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-u-s-open-tennis/820934/89 "2018-09-11T00:04:41Z")
When you watch other sports like basketball, when the opponent starts gaining momentum the coach usually calls a time out to re-set his team and get the other team off their rhythm. Watching this live it seemed like Serena noticed Osaka gaining moment and finding her rhythm and used the violation as an opportunity to halt the game and throw a tantrum. It seemed like a stall tactic to me. Also seemed like maybe she knew she was beat and went really hard into the mid game drama so she could use it as an excuse after the game. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-u-s-open-tennis/820934/90 "2018-09-11T00:06:22Z")
Am I the only one who is impressed/surprised/shocked by her physical appearance these days? She’s _even more_ muscular and intimidating than I’ve ever seen her. Her face and head seem larger. What is professional tennis’s drug testing policies? (This is an honest observation and question, please don’t eviscerate me). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-u-s-open-tennis/820934/91 "2018-09-11T00:08:48Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Am I the only one who is impressed/surprised/shocked by her physical appearance these days? She’s _even more_ muscular and intimidating than I’ve ever seen her. Her face and head seem larger. What is professional tennis’s drug testing policies? (This is an honest observation and question, please don’t eviscerate me). She’s rather famously tested significantly more often than most other players, and she’s never failed a test. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-u-s-open-tennis/820934/92 "2018-09-11T00:18:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > She’s rather famously tested significantly more often than most other players, and she’s never failed a test. Ok thanks. I should have clarified my question, are there current testing methods in use for non-steroidal performance-enhancing drugs like human growth hormone, insulin, etc? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-u-s-open-tennis/820934/93 "2018-09-11T00:31:30Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Ok thanks. I should have clarified my question, are there current testing methods in use for non-steroidal performance-enhancing drugs like human growth hormone, insulin, etc? I don’t know that one. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-u-s-open-tennis/820934/94 "2018-09-11T01:04:26Z")
what I thought was trash was what was said at the trophy ceremony Note this is the ny post ……. [It's shameful what US Open did to Naomi Osaka](https://nypost.com/2018/09/08/its-shameful-what-us-open-did-to-naomi-osaka/) I mean who makes the winner apologize for anything ? If I was a sponsor and seen this crap id be looking to other sports ……… ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-u-s-open-tennis/820934/95 "2018-09-11T02:00:15Z")
I totally respect Serena as a player, and it’s not even a debate that she’s arguably the best female tennis player ever. And pound-for-pound, maybe the best tennis player ever, regardless of gender. But part of being a professional athlete is keeping composure. She lost it. And in any case, she was outplayed from start to finish by Osaka. Her behavior was unacceptable. There isn’t really much to discuss beyond that. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-u-s-open-tennis/820934/96 "2018-09-11T02:22:47Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > Hm, I watch a lot of tennis, and I know about the coaching rule. I just can’t remember ever seeing it invoked against a male player. I’ve rarely seen it invoked on anybody, and yet I’ve seen a lot of what really looks like coaching Actually, the umpire of the match in question has in the past penalized several high-profile male tennis players for the same thing, according to an article I read today on the subject. All of what everyone is saying about this is basically irrelevant. Maybe the rule should be changed. Maybe it’s not always enforced. These are not relevant to the point at hand. Serena’s coach was coaching her, in violation of the rules. We must presume that he was doing so with the acquiescence of Ms. Williams. She was punished for this with a code violation. At that point, all that she got was a warning. Had she not done anything else, it wouldn’t have mattered to the match. But she chose this issue to have a complete melt-down over. It cost her a game, which was certainly a stupid thing for her to do, if her goal was to maximize her chances of winning. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-u-s-open-tennis/820934/97 "2018-09-11T02:42:34Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > … it’s not even a debate that she’s arguably the best female tennis player ever. You could omit “arguably”. > [@](#): > > And pound-for-pound, maybe the best tennis player ever, regardless of gender. Probably not. She is, for example, bigger than Rod Laver. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-u-s-open-tennis/820934/98 "2018-09-11T03:39:23Z")
> [@icon](#): > > I for one feel sorry for Pete Sampras, when he won his 14th Grand Slam in 2002, beating the previous record of 13, he probably did not think that within 20 years 3 players would equal or surpass his record… > > //i\ Yeah, it’s pretty amazing. OTOH Sampras never won the French, so I’m glad the three you are referring to are all more well-rounded players who each have a “career Slam”. Also, along with his weakness on clay, Sampras also had a pretty weak backhand—another way in which he wasn’t so well-rounded. I really love a pretty one-handed backhand stroke (like Federer’s or his countryman Wawrinka’s; Thiem’s is also nice), so Federer is clearly the GOAT in my book for that reason and many others. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-u-s-open-tennis/820934/99 "2018-09-11T03:40:25Z")
> [@icon](#): > > I for one feel sorry for Pete Sampras, when he won his 14th Grand Slam in 2002, beating the previous record of 13, he probably did not think that within 20 years 3 players would equal or surpass his record… > > //i\ Sampras is a greater player than either Djoker or Rafa. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2018, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-u-s-open-tennis/820934/100 "2018-09-11T03:53:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > She’s rather famously tested significantly more often than most other players, and she’s never failed a test. Only because she has gotten some fairly controversial [Therapeutic Use Exemptions.](http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2018/07/serena-williams-drug-testing-tues-theraputic-use-discrimination/75548/), retroactively. Tennis anti-[doping regime is laughable.](https://www.si.com/tennis/2014/11/19/wertheim-mailbag-doping-itf-tennis). There are several players both male and female who I’d bet the house were on the juice. Lance Armstrong never failed a test either. Or Marion Jones. That means sweet fuck all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-u-s-open-tennis/820934.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2018-u-s-open-tennis/820934.md?page=6)