# 2025 House Speaker election **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 27, 2024, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2025-house-speaker-election/1012245 "2024-12-27T23:24:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2025-house-speaker-election/1012245/41 "2024-12-31T02:26:36Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Hmm. It will be an exciting day in US history. Beyond that everything behind every interpretation seems to be smoke and tradition. You may well be right. I saw another view that said if the Constitution does require swearing in (and like I said above, I may have missed it but I don’t think so) it certainly doesn’t require the Speaker to do so. So at 12:01pm on Jan 3rd, a member could get sworn in by a notary public and take office. I think the confusion comes from the Constitution says each house can make their own rules. True but under _US Term Limits v. Thornton_ laws cannot make eligibility more strict. I believe saying you have to take an oath to take your seat in Congress would fall under that. The President having to take an oath to exercise power is a separate issue as it is Constitutionally mandated. I think if push came to shove that distinction is critical. > [@Smapti](#): > > The Constitution states that “Each House may determine the rules of its proceedings”, so if the rules of the House say they must be sworn in, then they must be sworn in. House Rules would not overrule the Constitution. Specifically, eligibility to hold office. If the Republicans made a rule that to be seated, every member must sign a pledge of loyalty to Lord Trump in their own blood, are you saying they could refuse to seat the Democrats who refuse because “House Rules”? Note: I even covered that above in my first paragraph before I saw your post. tl;dr Rules do not override the Constitution. Read the _Ballin_ decision regarding quorum. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2025-house-speaker-election/1012245/42 "2024-12-31T02:28:42Z")
There’s a way around everything. If it came down to the wire they could elect him, certify and then vote to vacate. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2025-house-speaker-election/1012245/43 "2024-12-31T02:41:02Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > House Rules would not overrule the Constitution. Specifically, eligibility to hold office. If there’s a legal precedent that requiring someone to take an oath of office is unconstitutional, I’m not aware of it. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > If the Republicans made a rule that to be seated, every member must sign a pledge of loyalty to Lord Trump in their own blood, are you saying they could refuse to seat the Democrats who refuse because “House Rules”? I suppose they could try and we can see how the court proceedings play out. I expect it would run afoul of the Speech or Debate Clause and/or the ban on religious tests. Of course, if they had the two-thirds majority necessary to make such a rule they could just hold expulsion votes on each and every Democrat one-by-one instead. ETA: Article VI states “The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution”, which certanly sounds to me like it’s saying they have to be sworn in. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2025-house-speaker-election/1012245/44 "2024-12-31T02:52:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If there’s a legal precedent that requiring someone to take an oath of office is unconstitutional, I’m not aware of it. Has it ever been challenged? Has it ever needed to be challenged? Remember that since this is a constitutional requirement issue we are limiting our sample to members of Congress and the Vice-President specifically. Since SCOTUS Justices and cabinet member eligibility is more nebulous, you might be able to claim that advice and consent of the Senate requires the oath passed by Federal Law, but that is a completely different discussion. Except that’s not the precedent. Like I said, SCOTUS has held that the constitutional eligibility for office cannot be made more strict. According to the Constitution (and the Federal law stating terms begin at noon on Jan 3rd which is allowed) if I am elected Representative and I am 25 years or older A citizen of the United States for at least 7 years A resident of the state i was elected for. Then I am a Representative. Period. End of discussion. Done. You seem to think that House Rules or federal law can do an end around but it can’t. It simply cannot add more requirements like taking an oath, not being a ginger or being 6’0" or taller. “But Saint Cad …” **NO!** Stop right there and read up on _Powell v McCormack_ that directly says you are wrong. From Oyez > Chief Justice Warren concluded that since Powell had been lawfully elected by his constituents and since he met the constitutional requirements for membership in the House, that the chamber was powerless to exclude him. Question for you. Is taking the oath as a member of Congress **constitutionally required**? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2025-house-speaker-election/1012245/45 "2024-12-31T03:04:34Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Question for you. Is taking the oath as a member of Congress **constitutionally required**? You might have missed my ETA. Article VI states that “The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution”. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2025-house-speaker-election/1012245/46 "2024-12-31T03:12:44Z")
In all fairness, I did say I may have missed it. I was looking in Article I similarly to the Presidential Oath being in Article II. I stand absolutely corrected. Thank you for finding that. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2025-house-speaker-election/1012245/47 "2024-12-31T03:18:22Z")
But that doesn’t say that only the Speaker can administer the oath. Just like the President must swear an oath, but nothing says the prez must be sworn in by the Chief Justice of the US. Teddy Roosevelt and LBJ were sworn in by federal District Court judges. Washington was sworn in by a NY state judge. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2025-house-speaker-election/1012245/48 "2024-12-31T03:21:58Z")
There’s also Article I, section 5, clause 1: > Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members, and a **Majority of each shall constitute a Quorum to do Business;** Nothing there that says a Speaker is necessary to do business. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2025-house-speaker-election/1012245/49 "2024-12-31T05:11:24Z")
Here’s an idea. A member of Congress gets sworn in by a notary at 12:01 and as the only sworn-in member they nominate and vote for themselves as Speaker. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2025-house-speaker-election/1012245/50 "2024-12-31T13:04:33Z")
Coolidge was initially sworn in as president by his father, a notary public, when word arrived that Harding had died in California. He was later re-sworn in by a judge of the DC District Court, after questions arose whether a notary public could administer the oath. However, Coolidge entered into the duties of his office on the strength of the initial oath, and exercised the powers of president for two weeks based on that initial oath. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2024, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2025-house-speaker-election/1012245/51 "2024-12-31T15:06:39Z")
I do think all of this “they can’t be sworn in!!!” is “angels dancing on a pinhead” levels of navel-gazing. The precedents and procedures of the House (not rules – their rules expired with the end of the last session) are that the Speaker swears in the members, but precedents and procedures only last as long as it’s in most Members’ interest that they do so. The House will elect a Speaker or find another way to accommodate the electoral count. Democrats don’t have any interest in preventing the count from going forward. As long as most members are OK with whatever procedural kludge allows them to proceed, it’ll happen. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2025, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2025-house-speaker-election/1012245/52 "2025-01-01T02:14:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The Constitution states that “Each House may determine the rules of its proceedings”, so if the rules of the House say they must be sworn in, then they must be sworn in. I will conjecture that there are no rules until the House is assembled and someone moves to adopt the old rules. I would also conjecture that the elected and certified members are members before they have taken the oath; else how could they elect a speaker? When JFK was shot, I remember reading somewhere that LBJ became president the instant Kennedy died. Yes he took the oath on the plane from Dallas to DC, but he was president even before that. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2025, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2025-house-speaker-election/1012245/53 "2025-01-01T02:27:36Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > Democrats don’t have any interest in preventing the count from going forward. I think a few want to sit back, watch the Pubs implode (again) and somehow that translates into the EV count not being certified by noon on January 20th. I mean, that won’t happen but don’t stop the Dems from hoping. Actually, even if not having a Speaker only leads to a clusterfuck on 1/6 and the votes can’t be certified that day, I’m sure the Dems will find it fitting. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2025, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2025-house-speaker-election/1012245/54 "2025-01-01T02:29:18Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > The precedents and procedures of the House (not rules – their rules expired with the end of the last session) are that the Speaker swears in the members, but precedents and procedures only last as long as it’s in most Members’ interest that they do so. It’s law. 2 USC 25. Question is it truly enforceable or can a member goes out and get sworn in by Judge Dredd? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2025, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2025-house-speaker-election/1012245/55 "2025-01-01T02:38:16Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > When JFK was shot, I remember reading somewhere that LBJ became president the instant Kennedy died. Yes he took the oath on the plane from Dallas to DC, but he was president even before that Yes, I think that flows from the wording of Article II, section 1, clause 8: > Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation… The oath doesn’t make the person the Prez, but it’s a necessary formality before the new person can exercise the functions of the office. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2025, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2025-house-speaker-election/1012245/56 "2025-01-01T02:45:33Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I think a few want to sit back, watch the Pubs implode (again) and somehow that translates into the EV count not being certified by noon on January 20th. I mean, that won’t happen but don’t stop the Dems from hoping. I dont think the Dems are hoping for that. What they are hoping for is evidence that this GOP House will again implode and not be able to do any of the 'wonderful" crap that the GOP has promised. If they need to, they will just bring in a SCOTUS judge to swear them in. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2025, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2025-house-speaker-election/1012245/57 "2025-01-01T02:46:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I dont think the Dems are hoping for that. I said a few Dems. Not the whole party. > [@DrDeth](#): > > SCOTUS judge SCOTUS has justices, not judges. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2025, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2025-house-speaker-election/1012245/58 "2025-01-01T02:48:27Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I said a few Dems. Not the whole party. Okay, I can buy that, But the Dems _are_ happy the GOP is fragmented and have a tiny razor thin majority. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2025, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2025-house-speaker-election/1012245/59 "2025-01-01T02:49:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Okay, I can buy that, But the Dems _are_ happy the GOP is fragmented and have a tiny razor thin majority. Which is why I think as a party, they would be happy (not hoping for) if the Pubs can’t get their act together in time for 1/6. But I also said that scenario won’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2025, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2025-house-speaker-election/1012245/60 "2025-01-01T03:38:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If they need to, they will just bring in a SCOTUS judge to swear them in. And once they’re sworn in, they just show up for the joint session on January 6 and, per law, provide two members to act as “tellers” and count the electoral votes, those members being selected by… (checks notes) …the Speaker. Whoops. > **[3 U.S. Code § 15 - Counting electoral votes in Congress](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/3/15)** > [@](#): > > At the joint session of the Senate and House of Representatives described in subsection (a), there shall be present two tellers previously appointed on the part of the Senate and two tellers previously appointed on the part of the House of Representatives by the presiding officers of the respective chambers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2025-house-speaker-election/1012245.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/2025-house-speaker-election/1012245.md?page=4)