# 24: Season 7: Episodes 11-12 (6:00pm - 8:00pm) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 2, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/24-season-7-episodes-11-12-6-00pm-8-00pm/488069 "2009-03-02T22:48:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/24-season-7-episodes-11-12-6-00pm-8-00pm/488069/41 "2009-03-04T05:07:50Z")
> [@Baracus](#): > > Was anybody else thinking that that guy with the laptop was like the Sengalan Chloe? From what I could tell with his magic laptop he was able to turn off the underground proximity sensor (kudos to his wireless provider for offering subterranian service), interrupt SS communications, track the President, hack into the safe room (almost), patch into the feed from the “hidden” chandelier cam, and open a secure channel to the safe room. I was watching this tonight with a friend, and we were both cracking up whenever they showed Juma’s soldiers coming down a hallway, all of them packing heavy weaponry, and there was little Poindexter Sengalan walking half hunched over his tablet PC. It was an amusing image. > [@tr0psn4j](#): > > Chloe got arrested so nonchalantly too. I like the Evil Eye she was giving Janis. Oh, and Senator Mayer saying, “What have you done?” to Jack at the end? Ermm… scuse me? If he’s referring to the opening of the door, that was the President’s call. And if he’s referring to the rest of it… well, those are some oversized cajones he’s whipping out, given that Jack almost had the info out of Ryan an hour earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/24-season-7-episodes-11-12-6-00pm-8-00pm/488069/42 "2009-03-04T13:11:28Z")
> [@Monstre](#): > > Surprised that Juma didn’t gun Bill down right when they caught him with the tracking bracelet. Thought he was a goner coming up on that scene. Me too. While I’m glad Bill is not dead, it seemed very contrived. “Don’t kill him yet; we might need a hostage.” NOW? You just gunned down 87 Secret Service guys! I also liked how a janitor can flip a switch in a locker room and disable the White House security system. Or something like that; it wasn’t really clear _how_ that guy did what he did. But the ADT system in my house probably would have been more effective. They usually do have to cut some corners in plausibility to get to the point on this show. In this episode, they cut the corner, drove up on the curb, down the sidewalk and across the park. That said, once they got where they were going I thought it was a great, thrilling episode. Does anybody else think the Prez’s daughter is going to die anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/24-season-7-episodes-11-12-6-00pm-8-00pm/488069/43 "2009-03-04T13:27:26Z")
(Missed the edit window, but I thought of another great scene.) Agent Rowwr is on the boat, unrolling the papers the bad guys had been looking at. “Hmmm, as an experienced FBI agent working in Washington D.C., these maps and diagrams mean nothing to me. Wait! What’s this? _It’s a giant drawing of the WHITE HOUSE!!_” Dun-dun-DUUUUN!!! I love _24_. Really. It’s just a stitch pointing stuff like this out. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/24-season-7-episodes-11-12-6-00pm-8-00pm/488069/44 "2009-03-04T13:39:11Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > At least the super bad guy (Jon Voight) is finally back in the picture. So what’s the motivation? Apparently some “shipment”. Drugs? Couldn’t be guns, that’s what they gave Juma. Slaves? Flying monkeys? Please, let there be flying monkeys. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/24-season-7-episodes-11-12-6-00pm-8-00pm/488069/45 "2009-03-04T13:56:06Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > (Missed the edit window, but I thought of another great scene.) > > Agent Rowwr is on the boat, unrolling the papers the bad guys had been looking at. > > “Hmmm, as an experienced FBI agent working in Washington D.C., these maps and diagrams mean nothing to me. Wait! What’s this? _It’s a giant drawing of the WHITE HOUSE!!_” Dun-dun-DUUUUN!!! > > I love _24_. Really. It’s just a stitch pointing stuff like this out. 😃 I laughed out loud at that part. It’s even funnier that the terrorists never even saw the front of the White House. They had absolutely no reason to have that picture. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/24-season-7-episodes-11-12-6-00pm-8-00pm/488069/46 "2009-03-04T16:01:39Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > At least the super bad guy (Jon Voight) is finally back in the picture. So what’s the motivation? Apparently some “shipment”. Drugs? Couldn’t be guns, that’s what they gave Juma. Slaves? Flying monkeys? Genetically altered cock-a-roaches. So did Juma bail before the invasion began? The flight from Sengala must have taken a while. ---
**Author:** ![Winston\_Bongo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a9adbd/32.png) [@Winston\_Bongo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Winston_Bongo)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/24-season-7-episodes-11-12-6-00pm-8-00pm/488069/47 "2009-03-04T17:45:56Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > So did Juma bail before the invasion began? The flight from Sengala must have taken a while. I don’t get the whole Juma-in-D.C. thing either. Did he just assume that their intricately-plotted plan to use the CIP device to force the President to call off the invasion would fail miserably? Because if it had worked, Juma wouldn’t even be _in_ Sengala to take control. Or was he planning to invade the White House all along? If so, why bother with the CIP device in the first place? And I guess there are no security cameras in the corridors of the White House, unlike, say, your local 7-11. (Well, except for the camera in the chandelier, but that one just feeds into the panic room, for whatever reason.) You’d think there’d be cameras everywhere, with Secret Service guys watching 24/7. But no, apparently a small army of dudes with machine guns can go skulking around in the White House without anyone realizing it until they come around the corner and start shooting. I also would have slightly altered the dialogue at the end between Jack and the President: PREZ: Could you stand by and watch _your_ daughter get murdered before your eyes? JACK: (Long pause) PREZ: Well? JACK: I’m thinking, I’m thinking! ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/24-season-7-episodes-11-12-6-00pm-8-00pm/488069/48 "2009-03-04T17:50:01Z")
> [@Winston\_Bongo](#): > > And I guess there are no security cameras in the corridors of the White House, unlike, say, your local 7-11. (Well, except for the camera in the chandelier, but that one just feeds into the panic room, for whatever reason.) You’d think there’d be cameras everywhere, with Secret Service guys watching 24/7. But no, apparently a small army of dudes with machine guns can go skulking around in the White House without anyone realizing it until they come around the corner and start shooting. They were removed during the Clinton administration. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/24-season-7-episodes-11-12-6-00pm-8-00pm/488069/49 "2009-03-04T18:36:49Z")
> [@Baracus](#): > > I think they walked a ways through the sewer, but apparently few lessons were learned from the Chinese infiltration of CTU through the storm sewers except to put up an easily defeated proximity alarm. When the clock was ticking at the hour change (7:00), they were still underwater! But by 7:12, they were in the WH corridors, fully armed and bone dry. It’s a good thing most of Juma’s men are bald, because otherwise the still-wet hair would’ve been mighty conspicuous > [@](#): > > The tasering of the phone was priceless. Boring conversation anyway. 😉 > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > He did a couple of seasons ago. The wimpy guy who was his ex GF’s GIFN. With a plugged in lamp cord. But he was still holding back something (some business connection or something). Even Heller’s son the slacker was tortured for a while to no effect, and it appeared, after several episodes, that Jack finally found someone who actually didn’t know anything. WRONG! Turns out, slacker-son knew Mandy the hit hottie! Who knew? Why Jack of course! :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > The torture thing has forced me to suspend the disbelief once too many times… and is it just me, but is it weird that Air America host and pretty extreme left winger Jeannean(sp?) Garafolo is part of this show…? Or does she just need the money? Well, this was the year when the writers said they were going to re-examine the torture debate, addressing the issue from a more “balanced” perspective and taking pains to view Jack’s past actions in a new light (see, he’s testifying before Congress! The rule of law wins out!). Of course, this is FOX so we all know that that promise has turned out to be ass-covering horseshit. Jack still tortures with impunity and no apology, everyone else who confronts him are either too emotional (FBI chick), too out-of-touch (her FBI boss), too sanctimonious (Kurtwood Smith, whose own aide is a traitor), or far too eager to flip-flop when the going gets touch (Madame POTUS). Oh, and the alternative–let’s strike a deal!–collapses in utter failure in a matter of seconds. Jack knows best (he told us himself this episode when he knows people are holding back) so everything he does gets the show’s seal-of-approval. What I found most despicable in this episode, though, was how he was trying to strong-arm Bill into becoming a torturer, too. Think of your country! But it’s the only way! We have no choice! Millions of people will die! It is to the show’s limited credit that Bill didn’t play ball, but in the prism of the show, that’s seen as much as a character flaw as a virtue. I really really really want to see Jack murder an innocent person based on his god-given “certainty”. Or I want to see him tortured for information we definitely know he doesn’t have (and from which he doesn’t conveniently escape). Make it singularly unambiguous that sometimes\*, when torture is employed, it’s wrong, misguided, counter-productive, and sadistic. But I know that’s hoping for too much, especially from this show. I really was hoping for a slightly more honest discussion of both sides, but can’t say I’m all that surprised with the safer, more obvious choice. > [@Finagle](#): > > b. Dubaku’s son was waiting for him to join the raid. But that appeared to be the furthest thing from Dubaku’s mind just a couple of hours earlier. His semi-exact quote was “I’ve done what I can here, it’s time to leave.” And it’s really unlikely that he would have picked up the girlfriend for a fun evening of dating and White House invasion. It’s as if two completely different groups of writers handled the morning and evening plots and didn’t even chat with each other. From a purely physical perspective, Dubaku’s son was also the runt of that litter. How much you want to bet he got put on the team because of nepotism and not because he was good at, well, anything? > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > I laughed out loud at that part. It’s even funnier that the terrorists never even saw the front of the White House. They had absolutely no reason to have that picture. I laughed out loud at that, too, since the set-up was exactly like a Simpsons sight gag for Homer who’s too dim to get the easier clues and needs a big neon sign to get the point across. D’oh! \*note that “sometimes” is what I’m hoping would be a concession from the show’s POV. My personal attitude is “virtually always” in Real World scenarios ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/24-season-7-episodes-11-12-6-00pm-8-00pm/488069/50 "2009-03-04T19:09:04Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > I really really really want to see Jack murder an innocent person based on his god-given “certainty”. Or I want to see him tortured for information we definitely know he doesn’t have (and from which he doesn’t conveniently escape). Yes, that would be cool. Perhaps Congressman whatshisname, if he survives, will see the light and question Jack with a taser when the hearings resume. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/24-season-7-episodes-11-12-6-00pm-8-00pm/488069/51 "2009-03-04T21:05:31Z")
I’m finding this whole torture “debate” to be extremely forced and stilted anyway, especially in the context of the _24_-verse. Imagine living in a world in which a 9/11-like attack (or in some cases much, much worse – nuclear blast, anyone?) takes place like clockwork about once a year. The highest levels of government are routinely infiltrated with murderous traitors. A conversation about the ethics of torture in _that_ world really doesn’t pertain so much to our real one. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/24-season-7-episodes-11-12-6-00pm-8-00pm/488069/52 "2009-03-04T21:08:46Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > A conversation about the ethics of torture in _that_ world really doesn’t pertain so much to our real one. Hmm…thinking back, what was the most “important” (in a highly-placed governmental sort of way) person Jack has tortured? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/24-season-7-episodes-11-12-6-00pm-8-00pm/488069/53 "2009-03-04T22:27:20Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Hmm…thinking back, what was the most “important” (in a highly-placed governmental sort of way) person Jack has tortured? > > -Joe Pretty sure he put the screws to the President a couple of seasons ago. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/24-season-7-episodes-11-12-6-00pm-8-00pm/488069/54 "2009-03-04T23:50:45Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > Pretty sure he put the screws to the President a couple of seasons ago. Wasn’t he faking it to lull the Pres into a False Sense of Security and plant a mike on him? ---
**Author:** ![Stealth\_Potato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Stealth\_Potato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stealth_Potato)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/24-season-7-episodes-11-12-6-00pm-8-00pm/488069/55 "2009-03-05T01:13:57Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > He did a couple of seasons ago. The wimpy guy who was his ex GF’s GIFN. With a plugged in lamp cord. > Someone who remembers names better than I will be along soon… That would be Paul Raines. Anyway, as usual, I’m really enjoying the show aside from all the mind-boggling stupidity. It’s great, really – half the time I’m torn between laughter and suspense. When there was the big reveal of General Juma and his men across the river from the Lincoln Memorial, I actually burst out laughing. It was just too absurd, impossible, audacious, and yet somehow completely _perfect_. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/24-season-7-episodes-11-12-6-00pm-8-00pm/488069/56 "2009-03-05T01:53:45Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > Agent Rowwr is on the boat, unrolling the papers the bad guys had been looking at. > > “Hmmm, as an experienced FBI agent working in Washington D.C., these maps and diagrams mean nothing to me. Wait! What’s this? _It’s a giant drawing of the WHITE HOUSE!!_” Dun-dun-DUUUUN!!! Yeah, especially when she probably saw a map of the floor plan, with “Oval Office” marked on one room. “Wonder what building THAT is?” BTW, when young Dubaku-ling spotted her, I thought she was going to hide outside the cabin door and ambush him in close hand-to-hand combat when he flew out to the deck. Rather than leaping overboard and trying to outswim machine gun bullets. I guess she’s a faster swimmer than I’d expected… ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/24-season-7-episodes-11-12-6-00pm-8-00pm/488069/57 "2009-03-05T02:19:08Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > They were removed during the Clinton administration. 😛 BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! You win the thread. > [@Archive Guy](#): > > Boring conversation anyway. Nice. 🙂 Aren’t you a little short to be a CTU agent? > [@Archive Guy](#): > > Think of your country! But it’s the only way! We have no choice! Millions of people will die! It is to the show’s limited credit that Bill didn’t play ball, but in the prism of the show, that’s seen as much as a character flaw as a virtue. I got the impression that Bill’s major reason for “I can’t” was that he didn’t think he could successfully do it. He’s not trained in interrogation. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/24-season-7-episodes-11-12-6-00pm-8-00pm/488069/58 "2009-03-05T02:22:29Z")
> [@Stealth\_Potato](#): > > That would be Paul Raines. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/24-season-7-episodes-11-12-6-00pm-8-00pm/488069/59 "2009-03-05T20:57:14Z")
[QUOTE=Monstre] Oh, and Senator Mayer saying, “What have you done?” to Jack at the end? Ermm… scuse me? If he’s referring to the opening of the door, that was the President’s call. [/QUOTE] But was it really? I mean, Jack could have tied her to a chair and tasered her or something. 😉 [QUOTE=Wheelz] Me too. While I’m glad Bill is not dead, it seemed very contrived. “Don’t kill him yet; we might need a hostage.” NOW? You just gunned down 87 Secret Service guys! [/QUOTE] That was my immediate reaction, but after about 30 seconds of thought it made sense. During the invasion, they were trying for a swift, under the radar infiltration to get to the President. In that scenario, you quietly take out everyone in your path so there’s no one to sound an alert or prisoners to slow you down. But when they caught Bill, they recognized that the President and Secret Service were aware they were in the building. That meant they might not actually get the President. So he jumped to Phase 2 of the plan, take as many hostages as you can to use as leverage against the outside or the President. > [@](#): > > I also liked how a janitor can flip a switch in a locker room and disable the White House security system. Or something like that; it wasn’t really clear how that guy did what he did. But the ADT system in my house probably would have been more effective. He opened a socket and connected up the cut and paste feature. Okay, think that he’s had days or weeks to be working on the system. Thus, he had plenty of time over lunch breaks or stolen time from work shifts to wire up a kill switch to be ready just in the nick of time. [QUOTE=Snarky\_Kong] I laughed out loud at that part. It’s even funnier that the terrorists never even saw the front of the White House. They had absolutely no reason to have that picture. [/QUOTE] But they had to see what the building looked like from the front to know what the SS would be seeing during the standoff portion. Or something. [QUOTE=Winston Bongo] I don’t get the whole Juma-in-D.C. thing either. Did he just assume that their intricately-plotted plan to use the CIP device to force the President to call off the invasion would fail miserably? Because if it had worked, Juma wouldn’t even be in Sengala to take control. Or was he planning to invade the White House all along? If so, why bother with the CIP device in the first place? [/QUOTE] Welcome to 24, where it only takes 15 minutes\* to fly from Sengala in Africa to Washington D.C. [QUOTE=ArchiveGuy] From a purely physical perspective, Dubaku’s son was also the runt of that litter. How much you want to bet he got put on the team because of nepotism and not because he was good at, well, anything? [/QUOTE] Well, he was young. And he had an important job, guard the boat and chase Agent Rowrr, then get in a fight so he can die, too. Or something. [QUOTE=Monstre] BTW, when young Dubaku-ling spotted her, I thought she was going to hide outside the cabin door and ambush him in close hand-to-hand combat when he flew out to the deck. Rather than leaping overboard and trying to outswim machine gun bullets. I guess she’s a faster swimmer than I’d expected… [/QUOTE] But Mythbusters proved it doesn’t take much water to stop bullets. * * * \*The ubiquitous “15 minutes” that it takes anyone to get anywhere in any episode of 24. “I’ll be there in 15 minutes.” ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/24-season-7-episodes-11-12-6-00pm-8-00pm/488069/60 "2009-03-07T07:04:27Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > But Mythbusters proved it doesn’t take much water to stop bullets. She was swimming on the surface of the water, though. Maybe Dubakuling was firing “ich luge” bullets… 😉 and then Veronica wrote out the suicide note [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/24-season-7-episodes-11-12-6-00pm-8-00pm/488069.md?page=2)