What is this “will” thing? All it is is your brain’s ability to evaluate and prioritize competing concerns and choose the action that your brain believes is going to meet the highest priority concerns the best.
Alcohol deprioritizes certain concerns temporarily; it therefore changes the calculation; it therefore alters the will.
And I bet she’ll think the woman you slept with, assuming you were wearing your wedding ring, is a skank.
Again, I’m not saying that you’re a rapist if you sleep with someone who you believe will regret it in the morning; nor am I saying that if you don’t realize they’ll regret it in the morning (because you’ve got Asberger’s syndrome, or because they’re putting on a good act, or for any other reason) you’re a creep. I’m just saying that there are cases where a person knows that another person will regret getting jiggy; getting jiggy with them anyway is a creepy thing to do.
I’d forgotten about that. How, I don’t know, but I had forgotten about it. I’m not sure I’m grateful to be reminded, but yeah.
Right, but Bob’s question was specifically female-to-male rape, not male-to-male.
I understand thinking that one’s body wouldn’t betray one in that fashion in such a situation - but, from the more-common-but-by-no-means-exclusive direction, a lot of women have to deal with guilt over the fact that their body produced lubrication, thinking that their biology doing what it’s supposed to do somehow meant that some part of them enjoyed what was happening to them. I’m sure they didn’t, any more than a man in a similar situation who had an erection from fear (or strangulation, or what have you) would.
After re-reading the OP, i think there was a misreading of the prevalent statistic.
The way I have heard it is that 1 of 4 women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime, which includes childhood and beyond. OF THOSE 25%, most of them will have it occur during college, the majority in their freshman year.
Do you follow that up with inviting an equally (or more) drunk man that you’ve possibly never met before back to your room at four in the morning?
Yeah it’s more like ‘Joe is an asshole, but he’s a hot asshole, and I can always deflect the shit my friends give me for fucking him by saying that I was drunk…’
So are you saying that you could, potentially, get drunk enough to cheat on your wife?
Cause I’ve personally never been drunk enough to cheat on someone when there’s no way I would cheat sober.
You can roofie him. You can tie him up and rub it for a while and let the involuntary physiological response happen (same way that women get wet and/or orgasm from rape). You can use asphyxia to create an erection. There are ways, dude.
And it doesn’t matter if you’re so drunk you’re practically comatose, it’s still your fault.
Maybe you’ve not been that impaired, but that doesn’t mean you couldn’t be that impaired.
My inhibitions against cheating are extremely strong. But the point of impairment is that you’re impaired. There’s no mystical spiritual nonphysical judgment that guides me: it’s all processes in my brain. And if something impaired those processes badly enough, anything is possible.
That’s one reason why I will avoid impairing my judgment that much.
At any rate, that’s all irrelevant. The relevant point is that if you do something that you know someone is going to regret in the morning, and you’re only able to do it because they’re not thinking clearly right now, and you strongly suspect that’s true, then you’re a creep.
I don’t believe it, at least for myself. Is it not possible that there are some people (myself included,) for whom alcoholic impairment lowers inhibitions but never to the point where they would do something that was absolutely against their sober moral code?
Which is not to say that the lack of inhibition doesn’t increase proportionately to the amount of alcohol indefinitely, but rather that for some, physical incapacity will occur long before heretofore immoral acts are facilitated.
These inhibitions, this moral code–where do they exist, if not in your brain? How does alcohol lower your inhibitions, if not by inactivating those portions of your brain that control inhibitions?
It is possible that certain inhibitions are so strong that you’ll fall unconscious before alcohol inactivates them (and for the record, my anti-cheating inhibition is probably one of those). Other drugs, however, might work differently.
And as I said, that’s irrelevant. These incredibly strong inhibitions aren’t the only ones we should respect. If you do something with someone that you know they’ll regret, only because their judgment is currently impaired, it’s a creepy thing to do. Do you disagree?
I’ve been drunk enough to puke and pass out, and I’ve never reached a point where I would cheat on someone I loved. I firmly believe that the people who cheat while drunk are people who want to cheat while sober.
There is no way to read someone’s mind and know what they will regret later. You could sleep with someone who’s stone cold sober and they regret it the next day. Still make you a creep?
Regret of a bad decision made while drunk is not rape.
I wasn’t arguing your “creepy” angle, I was just saying that for me, most of my strongly-held moral positions I wouldn’t, or couldn’t, violate under any amount of alcohol.
That said, I’m not sure that fidelity would be one of those strongly-held beliefs for me. Who you bump uglies with just isn’t relevant enough to be world-shatteringly important to me.
Sure, if you purposely ply someone with alcohol to get them to sleep with you, it’s immoral, but I dunno if I’d quite apply the “creepy” label. If you bragged about it later to everyone, yes, it’s creepy, no matter who you are. Or if you used the incident to get other favors out of the other party for instance.
To be perfectly honest I personally function differently. Perhaps, TMI, but still relevant, my body would still produce arousal (i’m a man, so there’s no confusion) from standard things (erotic visual and tactile stimulation) regardless of the mentality of it. I do not have control over such things, and I’m amazed to hear some people do. Given proper stimulation I could get an erection strapped to an electric chair about to be executed - there isn’t something I can choose to think or choose not to think to reduce the effect. So I guess in my case, I can be raped in the most classical sense of the word. Hell if I’m ever in one of those nightmare situation where “Get a hard-on and we cut off your johnson” I’m utterly screwed.
Now I’m very curious since I have always assumed everybody was like this, and this isn’t something you discuss with your buddies over beers… well maybe some of you do but I don’t. So men, are you saying there is some sort of a rational thought component to your sexual arousal that you have direct control over? Like… you can choose not to? If that’s true I have some reading to do… am I a freak?
LHoD some people will pass out, be too sick to move due to alcohol long before they would cheat on a lover. I am certain that with the right combination of drugs anyone could become sufficiently out of control to break any moral code they have, just that Alcohol itself isn’t a sufficiently powerful or focussed drug to cause that to happen for many people.
I susspect a mixture of extacy (makes you horny, want sex), LSD (makes everything unreal), and alcohol (removes inhibitions extacy may have left behind) would probably distroy the ‘will’ of anyone. But I doubt many would mis their drugs like that without explicitly wanting to get completely out of their head and ready to do anything with anyone.
This is true; I tried to address this in my last post, but I guess I wasn’t clear enough.
Again, though, in order to be a creep, it’s not necessary that you knowingly participate in violating someone’s most deeply-entrenched inhibitions. All that’s necessary (and catsix, pay attention to the words here) is that you do something that you REASONABLY BELIEVE they will regret doing once their judgment is unimpaired.
If my use of the word “know” has caused terrible confusion, my apologies. I assumed that, as a skeptical community, we’d all realize that you can’t ever literally know someone’s motives, and that we’d all make allowances for the word to mean “reasonably believe.” Obviously my own psychic powers are on the wane.
Sometimes I get bogged down in minutia and forget to put things in perspective. After thinking it over I agree with you, Daniel. If you know someone is vulnerable for whatever reason and you exploit that vulnerability for sexual gratification that makes you a creep. It might not be illegal or a criminal offense but it still makes you a creep.
I think Daniel is speaking from ignorance on this matter, as if he’s swallowed the propaganda from Reefer Madness. PCP supposedly makes you crazy, but precious few drugs can override your basic values.
As to your example, I’ve never done X, but I have mixed alcohol, marijuana, LSD, opium and cocaine in a single sitting. (Prom night.) Still wouldn’t have done anything of significance I wouldn’t normally do anyway.
Not necessarily true.
I have seen people do weird, weird stuff under the influence of just alcohol, alcohol mixed with speed, alcohol with XTC, etc. (BTW : reading this back, alcohol was always involved)
Most people (like myself) will have control over themselves no matter what, some people loose all sense of control over themselves.
But most people who know this, will probably not put themselves in the same situation again, because you can easily wind up dead without any form of control over your actions.
Which is something that you might be able to tell if you (generic) knew the person already. If it’s someone that you’ve just met and they’re already drunk and trying to take you home with them and/or go home with you from a bar or a party, there’s no way to reasonably believe anything about what their unimpaired judgment would be.
Of course if you’re (not you specifically) the kind of person who would take advantage of your drunken friends, then yeah, pretty much a no-brainer for asshole status.
If that’s true I have some reading to do… am I a freak?