# 25 or 6 to 4 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [May 2, 2010, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-or-6-to-4/538004 "2010-05-02T03:39:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![lunachik77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed8c4c/32.png) [@lunachik77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lunachik77)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-or-6-to-4/538004/1 "2010-05-02T03:39:00Z")
The Chicago song “25 or 6 to 4” actually refers to The Kent State Shootings in 1970. This defines the 25 reference. In September 1970, twenty-four students and one faculty member were indicted on charges connected with the May 4 demonstration or the ROTC building fire three days before. These individuals, who had been identified from photographs, became known as the “Kent 25.” ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-or-6-to-4/538004/2 "2010-05-02T04:11:55Z")
OK, you have the ‘25’, and I suppose the ‘4’ comes from May the 4th. Only, the shootings took place on My 4th, 1970… and the album on which the song appeared (‘Chicago II’) was released on January 26th, 1970. Was Robert Lamm psychic? And speaking of Robert Lamm (you know – the guy who actually wrote the song), he is quoted [in the column](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1842/what-does-the-chicago-lyric-25-or-6-to-4-mean) as saying that ‘25 or 6 to four’ is the time of day in the song. . ---
**Author:** ![DChord568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@DChord568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DChord568)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-or-6-to-4/538004/3 "2010-05-02T04:14:58Z")
> [@lunachik77](#): > > The Chicago song “25 or 6 to 4” actually refers to The Kent State Shootings in 1970. This defines the 25 reference. > In September 1970, twenty-four students and one faculty member were indicted on charges connected with the May 4 demonstration or the ROTC building fire three days before. These individuals, who had been identified from photographs, became known as the “Kent 25.” If you believe this, you’ll have to explain how the album that contains the song “25 or 6 to 4” (_Chicago II_) entered the _Billboard_ album charts on February 21, 1970 – more than two months before the Kent State shootings took place! EDIT: Damn, Johnny…you got to the actual release date before I could find it. We were going to the same place at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-or-6-to-4/538004/4 "2010-05-02T04:22:46Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > OK, you have the ‘25’, and I suppose the ‘4’ comes from May the 4th. Only, the shootings took place on My 4th, 1970… and the album on which the song appeared (‘Chicago II’) was released on January 26th, 1970. Was Robert Lamm psychic? > > And speaking of Robert Lamm (you know – the guy who actually wrote the song), he is quoted [in the column](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1842/what-does-the-chicago-lyric-25-or-6-to-4-mean) as saying that ‘25 or 6 to four’ is the time of day in the song. > . It’s probably in Nostradamus somewhere. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-or-6-to-4/538004/5 "2010-05-02T04:26:27Z")
Maybe Nostradamus has a quatrain that will find the missing ‘6’ in the OP. (I was going to make that point, as seen by my first sentence, but it didn’t make it to the keyboard.) . ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-or-6-to-4/538004/6 "2010-05-02T13:41:08Z")
Chalk another one up for people who go to all the trouble of signing up for the SDMB for the sole purpose of posting their “real” answer as if they’re the only people to know it!:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-or-6-to-4/538004/7 "2010-05-02T13:54:32Z")
> [@Sparky812](#): > > Chalk another one up for people who go to all the trouble of signing up for the SDMB for the sole purpose of posting their “real” answer as if they’re the only people to know it!:rolleyes: Actually, I bet the OP is the only person in the world who knows this. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-or-6-to-4/538004/8 "2010-05-02T13:59:45Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > It’s probably in Nostradamus somewhere. 😃 The “Nostradamus” album was released prior to the group becoming a group. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-or-6-to-4/538004/9 "2010-05-02T14:36:55Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > The “Nostradamus” album was released prior to the group becoming a group. And it went platinum before that. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-or-6-to-4/538004/10 "2010-05-02T22:49:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Maybe Nostradamus has a quatrain that will find the missing ‘6’ in the OP. The song was written on November 4, 1969 - exactly six months before the events it described occurred. ---
**Author:** ![qazwart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/5fc32e/32.png) [@qazwart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qazwart)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-or-6-to-4/538004/11 "2010-05-03T18:46:05Z")
This is a [Cecil column](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1842/what-does-the-chicago-lyric-25-or-6-to-4-mean). Isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-or-6-to-4/538004/12 "2010-05-03T18:58:43Z")
Man, everybody here is so linear in the temporal thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-or-6-to-4/538004/13 "2010-05-03T20:15:03Z")
> [@qazwart](#): > > This is a [Cecil column](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1842/what-does-the-chicago-lyric-25-or-6-to-4-mean). Isn’t it? No. It is a staff report by SDSAB member **Songbird**. ---
**Author:** ![dmesser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6f9a4e/32.png) [@dmesser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dmesser)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-or-6-to-4/538004/14 "2010-05-03T22:09:33Z")
Wow. No. 25 or 6 to 4 refers to an approximate time. 3:34 or 3:35. (or, 25 or 26 to 4 o’clock). The song is about writing a song. It has nothing to do with Kent State. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-or-6-to-4/538004/15 "2010-05-03T22:17:13Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Man, everybody here is so linear in the temporal thinking. Does anybody really know what time it is? Does anybody really care? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-or-6-to-4/538004/16 "2010-05-04T02:42:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Does anybody really know what time it is? Does anybody really care? Actually, George always did. He always ended his monologues with “say goodnight, Gracie.” And she did. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-or-6-to-4/538004/17 "2010-05-04T20:04:10Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Does anybody really know what time it is? Does anybody really care? “Take the pepple from my hand. . .time for you to go.” ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-or-6-to-4/538004/18 "2010-05-04T20:55:33Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Actually, George always did. He always ended his monologues with “say goodnight, Gracie.” And she did. No, she didn’t. Or at least she didn’t say “goodnight, Gracie,” as the joke would have it. She just said goodnight. I think it was Laugh-in that popularized the “goodnight, Gracie” (or equivalent) version of the joke. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2010, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-or-6-to-4/538004/19 "2010-05-04T23:31:43Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > No, she didn’t. Or at least she didn’t say “goodnight, Gracie,” as the joke would have it. She just said goodnight. I agree. I never meant she replied “Goodnight Gracie.” But George Did utter “say goodnight, Gracie.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-or-6-to-4/538004/20 "2010-05-05T17:31:59Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I think it was Laugh-in that popularized the “goodnight, Gracie” (or equivalent) version of the joke. “Say ‘Goodnight,’ Dick.” “Goodnight, Dick.” Yeah, it was _Laugh-in_ that put it on the map. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-or-6-to-4/538004.md?page=2)