# 25 things which make it hard for me to believe in God **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2009, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785 "2009-02-28T12:45:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/201 "2013-11-12T07:55:06Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I for one wait with baited breath scientific facts first revealed in the bible. If there is, I bet it will be wormy. (Bated… not baited 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/202 "2013-11-13T02:30:15Z")
> [@Mike92](#): > > The prophecies and scientific facts that are stated in the Old Testament, which science has proven, is very very improbable to have just been ‘thought of’ by peasants thousands of years ago. How could they possibly predict the prophecies if they didn’t come true until hundreds of years later? I recommend visiting the websites I listed. They can explain these issues much better then I can. > > If you truly want to find God then you should earnestly try to talk to Him. Even if you are not a hundred percent sure He exists, if You direct your prayer towards Him or who you think He is, He will show Himself to you. This does not mean He will send an angel or bolt of lightning down but He will speak to you many different ways. > > In my prayers. > > Mike92 No one can be sure God exists, only believe that God exists if they knew, they could prove it. God would not need prayers he should know what every one needs and doesn’t need for their own good. A human father would not be called a good father if he held anything back from his child that was for it’s own good, nor give anything that the child would use to harm itself or others. If one trusts in God then Prayer should not be necessary, and why would a Good all knowing powerful, loving being keep it self hidden form his children? There are women according to the news that have killed their children because they believed God wanted them to do so. So they believed they were doing their children good, and possibly saving the from going to hell latter on? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/203 "2013-11-13T02:52:15Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > No one can be sure God exists, only believe that God exists if they knew, they could prove it. God would not need prayers he should know what every one needs and doesn’t need for their own good. A human father would not be called a good father if he held anything back from his child that was for it’s own good, nor give anything that the child would use to harm itself or others. If one trusts in God then Prayer should not be necessary, and why would a Good all knowing powerful, loving being keep it self hidden form his children? > > There are women according to the news that have killed their children because they believed God wanted them to do so. So they believed they were doing their children good, and possibly saving the from going to hell latter on? I noticed too late I wrote form instead of from his children, Perhaps some of the writers or translators made mistakes like I do? It is a fact that what we read, are taught, or thought for ourselves, is from other human’s or our own minds. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/204 "2013-11-13T13:01:16Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Please read my whole post. I gave you the word of catholic priests, nuns and lay people plus some bible quotes. Refute with sources and not opinion, please. > We studied, took tests and wrote papers on what to do when Jesus comes back and divides the people. Catholic high school too. What catholic told you no rapture? Most Christians have been waiting for Jesus to return, even though Matthew , and Mark both quote him as saying," I will return in my Father’s glory with his angels, before some standing here have seen death". Nor did the world end in that generation. So apparently to make that seem true some churches say that doesn’t mean generation as we think of it, but Matthew also wrote there was 14 generation between David and Jesus, using the same word for generation as we do today. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/205 "2013-11-13T17:14:04Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Most Christians have been waiting for Jesus to return, even though Matthew , and Mark both quote him as saying," I will return in my Father’s glory with his angels, before some standing here have seen death". Nor did the world end in that generation. So apparently to make that seem true some churches say that doesn’t mean generation as we think of it, but Matthew also wrote there was 14 generation between David and Jesus, using the same word for generation as we do today. All generations are equal, but some are more equal than others. Same thing with the day isn’t a day argument. We know the Bible is full of it concerning science, perhaps it is just as full of it with regard to math. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/206 "2013-11-13T22:02:51Z")
> [@Mike92](#): > > Greetings Weston. > > 1. Sin is such an insult to such a perfect, righteous God that there had to be a sufficient ‘payment’ for our debt (our sins) to be paid off. Odd that he couldn’t come up with a better set of rules. In any case, perfection can’t be insulted. According to Christian doctrine, God is unchanging. An insult has no effect. > [@](#): > > 1. If God made the universe smaller, what would be on the outside of this limit of the universe. It would be more existence. It doesn’t really matter whether its made up of stars, or planets or titbits, its still existence. What would be on the outside? There would be no outside. If the current universe is finite (and it may well be), there is nothing outside it. At least, there would be no evidence of anything outside it; anything outside it, if it did exist, would be irrelevant, as it could have no impact on anything inside it. > [@](#): > > 1. Dawkins belief about the origin of people is very different from the Christian belief. (most) Christians don’t believe humans are 250 000 years old. We believe that humans are closer to 6000-10 000 years old. God intervened in mans life and made himself known on the first day of mans existence. (Adam and Eve) I think you’re mistaken about what “most” Christians believe, unless you only count fundamentalists as “Christians”. In any case, the scientific consensus is clear, and the evidence is overwhelming, that humans existed far far longer than 10K years. There’s little point discussing anything rationally with someone who is so averse to facts that they can’t acknowledge this. But I’ll continue with the list anyway. > [@](#): > > 1. Yes, the trinity is a very tough concept to understand. I still don’t quite understand it and i’ve studied it quite a lot. When we think about how great and infinite God is it kind of makes sense that there are things we won’t understand about Him. Also, God created our concept of ‘logic’ and ‘reason’, so since He created these methods, he exists beyond the boundaries of our very finite human intelligence and comprehension. It makes no sense to me, but I’ll admit that it’s quite possible that if there is a God, He makes no sense to me. > [@](#): > > 1. This is indeed a very sad and unfortunate reality of our existence. The only reason disease and misery exist in the world is because of what happened in the Garden of Eden: Eve and Adam disobeyed God and brought sin into the perfect world God had made. because of this we have disease, mutations and other horrible things. Also, many of these chronic diseases are caused by humans (radiation causes cancer, junk food causes diabetes and heart problems) which can be passed down by the parents. All children who dies are, to my best knowledge, with God in heaven. Classic Christian apologetics. The other answer to this is “This is the best of all possible worlds, and a world without misery is impossible, even to the omnipotent.” I don’t buy either of these answers. A God who permits children to suffer isn’t worthy of worship. (Nor is a God who commends anyone to eternal torment. I have a hard time respecting anyone who would self-servingly snivel to such a Beast. However, I try to restrain myself, because I know perfectly decent people who do. I just can’t understand it.) > [@](#): > > 1. Those in Heaven will be with God and will truly see Him beyond what we can on earth. Everything will be clear, we will truly know Gods plan and we will see how righteous and fair He really is. Yeah, good luck with that. “It’s OK: Junior’s in Hell, suffering eternal torment, even though he was a great kid and wonderful man and invented the cure for a terrible common disease, and took care of us when we were old and sick – but he didn’t accept Christ as his personal savior, so … too bad! Oh my these clouds are lovely.” > [@](#): > > 1. God is eternal. Sin is so disgusting and awful to God, it is the complete opposite of who He is. Therefore if we sin against Him that sin is held against us forever. Its like on earth: you do the crime, you pay the time. This is where Jesus the saviour comes in. Instead of us paying the debt, Jesus basically said “Don’t worry i’ll go to jail for you, just sign here”. All we have to do is accept his payment on the cross and our debt is paid. we don’y have to pray ten times a day, or eat weird foods or give all our money to charity. We just have to love Jesus as He loves us. Whoever invented eternal punishment, and anyone who believes it, doesn’t understand the first thing about infinity or eternity. Infinite punishment is infinitely unjust for any finite transgression. So, all our transgressions, even the smallest, are infinite? Because if any are, all have to be. Do you REALLY believe that? (Check with any mathematician if you don’t believe what I say here about infinity.) > [@](#): > > 1. The greatest sin is to deny Gods love and reject Him. It’s not stealing or lying that puts you in hell, if it was then i’m in trouble =O. What puts us in hell is our choice to reject and live apart from God. If we wish to be apart from God in this life, why wouldn’t we also be apart from Him in the next. If we are sinners (which we all are) then God can’t let us into heaven as it wouldn’t be heaven anymore if there was sin there. We have to be cleaned by Jesus Christ first. The mistaken assumption here is that to not believe is to reject. You may believe it with all your heart, but you’re either guessing or taking someone else’s word for it. I happen to know firsthand, in this case. Telling me I’m lying doesn’t make me any more likely to buy the myth. And how could I possibly be “simply mistaken?” > [@](#): > > 1. Many supposed contradictions can be explained with proper analysis and study of the time period the verse was written , the context and who the verse was to/from. And many can’t. Furthermore, the texts we use today are patched together from much older texts, which had different contradictions. Several texts were modified in the early centuries of the Roman empire, so that the NT would make more sense. Sigh. > [@](#): > > 1. In Genesis is believe, it says that there are currents within/beneath the oceans and that a mans seed is in his sperm and that the earth is round and suspended in space. How would these primitive people know without the equipment we have today. Not to mention all the prophecies which were foretold and came true hundred of years later. The roundness of the Earth was known for a long, long time. The Greeks were the first to do the math. The roundness is evident from any sufficiently high mountaintop. The seed/sperm thing is pretty obvious, isn’t it? Except for the fact that it’s inaccurate. It’s not seed, it’s pollen. Underwater currents – I’ve noticed those simply wading on the shore. This doesn’t sound like much of a revelation. Suspended in space? Really? Where does it say that? > [@](#): > > 1. These ‘experiments’ can be misleading because people can’t measure what God does to peoples hearts. He may not answer prayers immediately. He may set events in motion which we will only see years down the road. Also, there is lots of room for interpretation in these studies. Bias is also very prevalent depending on the person(s) doing the study. If it’s real, it should be measurable. Unless God is specifically dodging significant results, tricky devil that he is. > [@](#): > > 1. God oversaw the writings of the Gospels. Since they were so important, as they contained the events of Jesus Christ the Saviour, God would want them to be reported accurately. And yet even the NT gospels contradict each other, quite directly, quite obviously, quite clearly, and only a lot of dancing around and changing the meanings of words can avoid it (barely). > [@](#): > > 1. Creation has not been debunked. Many scientific ‘theories’ that claim to disprove creation are just that: theories. Darwinian Evolution has never been even close to proven, as it can’t be observed using the scientific method. Carbon dating is based on many assumptions which leave room for a lot of error. Many dinosaur fossils aren’t actually fully fossilized or ‘hardened’ yet which supports the belief that dinosaurs didn’t die off 65 million or so years ago. Actually, there is no cohesive theory of “Creationism” to debunk. The evidence for evolution is massive and awesome and compelling, which anyone who’s studied the subject with an open mind will quickly see. Prayer is not required. > [@](#): > > 1. God does have free will. Humans have free will, in that we can choose to do option A or option B. God knows what option we will choose but we still have that choice. Imagine for s second: If a dad put a candy bar on the table in front his kid and then left the room, what do you think will happen? The dad know the kid will eat the candy bar because he know how his kid and kids in general think. But, it is still the kids choice whether or not to eat the candy bar. As I said above, Christian theology holds that God is unchanging. (If there’s a sect where this is not true, please let me know.) Given that God is unchanging, free will is irrelevant and meaningless, applied to Him. I do have trouble harmonizing God’s omniscience with man’s free will, but I think it’s a matter of perspective. In any case, I don’t think the free will issue illuminates the question of whether the Christian God exists. > [@](#): > > 1. A huge difference is the fact that when Jesus died on the cross, that day changed human history. Hundreds of religions, cults, organizations and churches/mosques/synagogues all base a lot of their doctrine on who Jesus was (and is). No event has impacted humans the way that (awesome yet sad) day did. This is indeed an interesting question, so thanks for bringing it up. > [@](#): > > 1. They may not have heard about Him yet, but that doesn’t me an they never will. God has a plan for everyone and that might mean them getting Saved at age 13 or 14 or not till their late 40’s. God put everyone on this earth for a purpose, whether we are saved or not. God does want everyone to be saved and be with Him in heaven. That choice comes down to the individual, God can’t force you to believe. That would take away our ability to choose to love Him, which is the greatest choice we can make. God sure chose a sloppy way to spread the One True Religion, given that the majority of people on the planet don’t adhere to it. 1. Our universe is made for our planet. Obviously the sun keeps our planet from freezing, yet were not too close so we don’t all get incinerated. The orbit of the other planets assist earths orbit so we don’t get ‘off track’ and jupiter’s (the BIG one) immense gravity pulls in comets and meteors which would otherwise hit earth and do serious damage. [/quote] No, the Earth cleared its own orbit. Comets wouldn’t do much damage, but meteors have. > [@](#): > > If we go back to Adam and Eve, the reason our planet has natural disasters is because the earth was polluted or infected by the sin of man. Also, some natural disasters fulfill a purpose for the earth to function (tropical storms distribute heat, hurricanes support costal life). How is this bit of mythology any better than any other bit of mythology? Not very compelling. 1. See Q#5 > [@](#): > > 1. God gave us free will so we could choose to love Him and one another. Without free will we would just be like robots. When you pre-record your phone to say “I love you” it doesn’t quite feel the same as your wife/girlfriend/parent/whoever say it. True love is a choice. I agree that free will isn’t a good argument against the existence of God. > [@](#): > > God wants you to have a relationship with Him, so if you sincerely look for Him you will find Him and He will accept you with open arms. People keep saying this and ignoring us when we point out that it simply isn’t true. > [@](#): > > You find what you seek. If I was looking for rocks i wouldn’t go to a ballon factory. So if you’re looking for God, seek Him. God is Love (John 4:8). Are you seeking love? Likewise, don’t look for good science in religious websites. > [@Mike92](#): > > The prophecies and scientific facts that are stated in the Old Testament, which science has proven, is very very improbable to have just been ‘thought of’ by peasants thousands of years ago. How could they possibly predict the prophecies if they didn’t come true until hundreds of years later? I recommend visiting the websites I listed. They can explain these issues much better then I can. Please cite three examples, where people with scientific credentials agree that facts that couldn’t have been known at the time of writing were written in the Bible. > [@](#): > > If you truly want to find God then you should earnestly try to talk to Him. Even if you are not a hundred percent sure He exists, if You direct your prayer towards Him or who you think He is, He will show Himself to you. This does not mean He will send an angel or bolt of lightning down but He will speak to you many different ways. Tried, failed. Tried really hard. Really wanted not to fail. > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > I don’t understand why theists tell atheists to pray and that god will reveal himself. It’s literally the easiest experiment ever and it never works. No, no, you’re doing it ALL WRONG. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2013, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/207 "2013-11-18T12:40:07Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > Odd that he couldn’t come up with a better set of rules. In any case, perfection can’t be insulted. According to Christian doctrine, God is unchanging. An insult has no effect. > > What would be on the outside? There would be no outside. If the current universe is finite (and it may well be), there is nothing outside it. At least, there would be no evidence of anything outside it; anything outside it, if it did exist, would be irrelevant, as it could have no impact on anything inside it. > > I think you’re mistaken about what “most” Christians believe, unless you only count fundamentalists as “Christians”. In any case, the scientific consensus is clear, and the evidence is overwhelming, that humans existed far far longer than 10K years. There’s little point discussing anything rationally with someone who is so averse to facts that they can’t acknowledge this. But I’ll continue with the list anyway. > > It makes no sense to me, but I’ll admit that it’s quite possible that if there is a God, He makes no sense to me. > > Classic Christian apologetics. The other answer to this is “This is the best of all possible worlds, and a world without misery is impossible, even to the omnipotent.” I don’t buy either of these answers. A God who permits children to suffer isn’t worthy of worship. (Nor is a God who commends anyone to eternal torment. I have a hard time respecting anyone who would self-servingly snivel to such a Beast. However, I try to restrain myself, because I know perfectly decent people who do. I just can’t understand it.) > > Yeah, good luck with that. “It’s OK: Junior’s in Hell, suffering eternal torment, even though he was a great kid and wonderful man and invented the cure for a terrible common disease, and took care of us when we were old and sick – but he didn’t accept Christ as his personal savior, so … too bad! Oh my these clouds are lovely.” > > Whoever invented eternal punishment, and anyone who believes it, doesn’t understand the first thing about infinity or eternity. Infinite punishment is infinitely unjust for any finite transgression. So, all our transgressions, even the smallest, are infinite? Because if any are, all have to be. Do you REALLY believe that? (Check with any mathematician if you don’t believe what I say here about infinity.) > > The mistaken assumption here is that to not believe is to reject. You may believe it with all your heart, but you’re either guessing or taking someone else’s word for it. I happen to know firsthand, in this case. Telling me I’m lying doesn’t make me any more likely to buy the myth. And how could I possibly be “simply mistaken?” > > And many can’t. Furthermore, the texts we use today are patched together from much older texts, which had different contradictions. Several texts were modified in the early centuries of the Roman empire, so that the NT would make more sense. Sigh. > > The roundness of the Earth was known for a long, long time. The Greeks were the first to do the math. The roundness is evident from any sufficiently high mountaintop. > > The seed/sperm thing is pretty obvious, isn’t it? Except for the fact that it’s inaccurate. It’s not seed, it’s pollen. > > Underwater currents – I’ve noticed those simply wading on the shore. This doesn’t sound like much of a revelation. > > Suspended in space? Really? Where does it say that? > > If it’s real, it should be measurable. Unless God is specifically dodging significant results, tricky devil that he is. > > And yet even the NT gospels contradict each other, quite directly, quite obviously, quite clearly, and only a lot of dancing around and changing the meanings of words can avoid it (barely). > > Actually, there is no cohesive theory of “Creationism” to debunk. The evidence for evolution is massive and awesome and compelling, which anyone who’s studied the subject with an open mind will quickly see. Prayer is not required. > > As I said above, Christian theology holds that God is unchanging. (If there’s a sect where this is not true, please let me know.) Given that God is unchanging, free will is irrelevant and meaningless, applied to Him. I do have trouble harmonizing God’s omniscience with man’s free will, but I think it’s a matter of perspective. In any case, I don’t think the free will issue illuminates the question of whether the Christian God exists. > > God sure chose a sloppy way to spread the One True Religion, given that the majority of people on the planet don’t adhere to it. > > 1. Our universe is made for our planet. Obviously the sun keeps our planet from freezing, yet were not too close so we don’t all get incinerated. The orbit of the other planets assist earths orbit so we don’t get ‘off track’ and jupiter’s (the BIG one) immense gravity pulls in comets and meteors which would otherwise hit earth and do serious damage. No, the Earth cleared its own orbit. Comets wouldn’t do much damage, but meteors have. How is this bit of mythology any better than any other bit of mythology? Not very compelling. 1. See Q#5 I agree that free will isn’t a good argument against the existence of God. People keep saying this and ignoring us when we point out that it simply isn’t true. Likewise, don’t look for good science in religious websites. Please cite three examples, where people with scientific credentials agree that facts that couldn’t have been known at the time of writing were written in the Bible. Tried, failed. Tried really hard. Really wanted not to fail. No, no, you’re doing it ALL WRONG. [/QUOTE] One of the things that stood out to me when I read the NT, was Jesus quoted as saying he only came for the lost sheep of Israel, and that he spoke in Parables so some would hear it , and be saved, so apparently he just wanted some to be saved, not everyone! ---
**Author:** ![jck630](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3ab097/32.png) [@jck630](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jck630)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/208 "2014-09-16T23:17:28Z")
First of all I would like to say that the Bible has never and will never contradict itself. If you read it at face value in the current translations then it will be easy for someone to be misled. You need to take it back to its original language to get the full meaning of what is being conveyed. But that alone will not necessarily help you. If we see things in this world or universe as mutually exclusive from Christianity in any way then we are saying that God is not Lord over it. God is either Lord over everything or Lord over nothing. So in other words things such as math and science, medicine, etc. are here for us to confirm or compliment his word in which it does. God didn’t design and create us to worship him. What could we possibly give him that he already doesn’t have. Just like I didn’t have children for them to serve me or worship me but to have a relationship with them and share my life with them and influence them in truth. If they choose not to partake in that relationship with me then there is nothing I can do but love them. Ultimately they have the choice to decide. I cannot make them. But speaking from a child’s point of view I love my parents so much that I choose to serve them as much and best that I can because I have a deep love for them. It is not out of obligation because that has legal ties to it and falls under leglism which condemns us and places us back under the law of sin and death. Jesus said that he is the way, the truth and the life. Since that is the case life can only be found in him through a love relationship and anything apart from Christ means death. So even as a professed Christian we may choose not to partake in that relationship and therefore we experience death in our lives. A lot of the points that I have seen is that you want to believe or even may think that you do yet you see nothing relevant about it as it applies to the world. Many Christians have somewhat of a supernatural belief yet they live their lives from a naturlistic view. So in other words they haven’t been fully persuaded of the Truth. Faith literally means to be persuaded or convicted of the truth and that truth being reliance on Jesus Christ for salvation. Grace literally means the influence upon the heart and its reflection in the life. So therefore when we hear the message and believe and accept it God imparts Faith within us because we are then under his influence (Grace) and we are being persuaded (Faith) of the Truth. Faith is not something we possess on our own and use it to activate God in our lives. As far as the relationship goes it is no longer external but internal. That was foretold from the beginning in Genesis 5. The fact that one claims that God doesn’t work miracles anymore, what exactly would you define as a miracle? How do you know that your eyes are not closed to the very thing you are accusing him of? God does not mess with free will. He gives us the ability to make decisions and we set things in motion whether good or bad, whether it hurts people or helps people and we have to live with the consequences whether good or bad. There is absolutely nothing in this world that we have control over but one thing. That is the choices that we make. Ultimately you have to decide whether you truly believe or not and whether you will pursue the life he has chosen to share with us through a love relationship or reject it. We can prove with science all day long that God is real but if you have your mind made up with preconcieved notions and what man has taught you in a formal setting then it is done in vain. Don’t look to man for Truth. That is only found in God through his son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Everything else here is to help confirm, test, and compliment his Word to know that total objective Truth lies in him and him alone. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/209 "2014-09-17T00:03:43Z")
> [@jck630](#): > > . . . There is absolutely nothing in this world that we have control over but one thing. That is the choices that we make. . . . That’s quite a lot, then, isn’t it? I choose what to have for breakfast, whether to break up with my girlfriend, whether to tell my boss what I really think of his management style… I choose whom to vote for. I choose whether or not to rob the liquor store and knife the old guy for his wallet. I choose whether or not to volunteer for a charity or donate to a good cause. We choose whether there will be war or peace. We choose a whole bunch of things, great and small. “There is absolutely nothing in the world that we have control over…” except for everything that humanity is capable of. Here is fifty dollars: you can’t do anything with it, except spend it. Um… Okay. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/210 "2014-09-17T00:50:45Z")
> [@jck630](#): > > First of all I would like to say that the Bible has never and will never contradict itself. Your beliefs are childish. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/211 "2014-09-17T06:27:34Z")
> [@jck630](#): > > If we see things in this world or universe as mutually exclusive from Christianity in any way then we are saying that God is not Lord over it. God is either Lord over everything or Lord over nothing. So in other words things such as math and science, medicine, etc. are here for us to confirm or compliment his word in which it does. That’s easy. There is no God, and no God is lord over nothing. And if you think science confirms the Bible, you really should learn some science. If you really had to revive this thread, you should try harder to say something rational. ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/212 "2014-09-17T10:51:06Z")
> [@jck630](#): > > We can prove with science all day long that God is real … Okay. Do it. ---
**Author:** ![orangeapples](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@orangeapples](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orangeapples)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/213 "2014-09-17T14:01:27Z")
> [@jck630](#): > > As far as the relationship goes it is no longer external but internal. That was foretold from the beginning in Genesis 5. **The fact that one claims that God doesn’t work miracles anymore, what exactly would you define as a miracle?** How do you know that your eyes are not closed to the very thing you are accusing him of? **God does not mess with free will**. He gives us the ability to make decisions and we set things in motion whether good or bad, whether it hurts people or helps people and we have to live with the consequences whether good or bad. (Excerpted from longer post, bolding mine) First, I’d rather you define what a miracle is. I’ll share with you what I don’t define as miraculous; childbirth, sunsets or sunrises, rainbows, purported healing via the power of faith, images of religious icons on anything a person eats, major upsets in the world of sports including and not limited to those that occur on ice, anything sexy thing related, salad dressing in whipped form…turns out it’s a longer list than I realized. Show me a miracle, or what you believe is a miracle, and we can discuss its merits as the need arises. Also, God surely does mess with free will since He imposes a pretty strict regimen upon us, and will deliver unto us an eternal and onerous reckoning should we stray. Oh, sure, I’ve got my precious free will. I should probably just leave it in the box, though, right? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/214 "2014-09-17T14:37:18Z")
If the zombie reviver return to answer replies, that \*might \*just be a miracle. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/215 "2014-09-17T14:43:15Z")
> [@jck630](#): > > First of all I would like to say that the Bible has never and will never contradict itself. If you read it at face value in the current translations then it will be easy for someone to be misled. You need to take it back to its original language to get the full meaning of what is being conveyed. What language would that be? What language was the Bible written in? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/216 "2014-09-17T14:58:32Z")
I admit that I find it a bit surprising one needs 25 reasons. I have precisely one, and it’s the same reason I happen to disbelieve that housecats know how to fly commercial airplanes. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/217 "2014-09-17T15:43:14Z")
You may recall that Toonces could drive a car – though very badly. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/218 "2014-09-17T15:44:29Z")
“Next, on the History Channel…_Cat Pilot_!” ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/219 "2014-09-17T15:50:31Z")
More likely _The Cats That Killed Kennedy_. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/220 "2014-09-17T17:22:09Z")
> [@jck630](#): > > God didn’t design and create us to worship him. What could we possibly give him that he already doesn’t have. How about those Yosemite Sam mudflaps that say “Back Off”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785.md?page=12)