# 25 things which make it hard for me to believe in God **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2009, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785 "2009-02-28T12:45:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/221 "2014-09-17T17:27:15Z")
> [@jck630](#): > > God didn’t design and create us to worship him. What could we possibly give him that he already doesn’t have. Just like I didn’t have children for them to serve me or worship me but to have a relationship with them and share my life with them and influence them in truth. If they choose not to partake in that relationship with me then there is nothing I can do but love them. Ultimately they have the choice to decide. I cannot make them. But speaking from a child’s point of view I love my parents so much that I choose to serve them as much and best that I can because I have a deep love for them. It is not out of obligation because that has legal ties to it and falls under leglism which condemns us and places us back under the law of sin and death. Jesus said that he is the way, the truth and the life. Since that is the case life can only be found in him through a love relationship and anything apart from Christ means death. So even as a professed Christian we may choose not to partake in that relationship and therefore we experience death in our lives. So, God didn’t design and create us to worship him, but he will crush us like bugs if we don’t. It’s funny that you compare it to a parental relationship. Will you punish your children for eternity if they don’t do the dishes? ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/222 "2014-09-17T17:30:18Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > So, God didn’t design and create us to worship him, but he will crush us like bugs if we don’t. It’s funny that you compare it to a parental relationship. Will you punish your children for eternity if they don’t do the dishes? It rather reminds me of a meme I saw last week. Jesus is knocking at the door. Jesus: “Please let me in” Person: “Why?” Jesus: “I’m here to save you.” Person: “From what?” Jesus: “From what I’m going to do to you if you don’t let me in!” ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/223 "2014-09-17T17:30:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What language would that be? What language was the Bible written in? Why, the original Yiddish, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/224 "2014-09-17T17:31:33Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I admit that I find it a bit surprising one needs 25 reasons. I have precisely one, and it’s the same reason I happen to disbelieve that housecats know how to fly commercial airplanes. Well, have you ever convinced one to _try_? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/225 "2014-09-17T17:33:08Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > How about those Yosemite Sam mudflaps that say “Back Off”? …And a Darwin walking fish. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/226 "2014-09-17T17:44:52Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > “Next, on the History Channel…_Cat Pilot_!” Trending on YouTube - LOLPilotz. The real reason is that they can’t stay away from the milk bar before the flight. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/227 "2014-09-17T17:50:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What language would that be? What language was the Bible written in? Glossolalia, natch. Hard to transcribe, though. ---
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/228 "2014-09-17T17:53:38Z")
[/jedi hand wave]These are not the contradictions you’re looking for. [/jhw] ---
**Author:** ![Knowledgable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/67e7ee/32.png) [@Knowledgable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowledgable)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2014, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/229 "2014-09-17T18:32:38Z")
It is VERY irritating (as much as caps are) when people use “facts”, which are already being challenged in order to prove other “facts”. **The best example in this thread being:** **Q:** There is as much hard empirical evidence for the existence of god as there is for the existence of the flying spagetti monster. Seriously. If God does exist then there is absolutely no difference between our universe and a universe where he doesn’t exist. **A:** If God didn’t exist, we would never have been, so I can’t really agree there. You are assuming what you set out to prove. OK. Now this is pure dumbness and is a very distasteful answer, as it provides no real answer, is contradictory to the question (in a way the makes it invalid, not from point of view) and adds nothing to the debate. When someone asks what reason to believe, don’t say because you wouldn’t be here if he didn’t create us. The question is, why believe he created us, obviously. Your vague and deliberately given answer is useless. It’s like saying I believe in God because the Bible tells me to do so and the Bible was written by God itself so it must be universally true. See what I mean there? It’s a paradox, until you see the possibility that some lonely guy who wanted friends created a pseudo-religion (Christianity). Adding to that seeing that there are many fallacies in the Christian Bible (The New Testament) and that it has been overwritten at least 10 times, indicating that changes has took place meaning that the “God’s words” were altered, taking the last drop of legitimacy from the Bible and Christianity is enough to not to believe in the existence of such an entity; at least one which is Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/230 "2014-09-18T02:35:53Z")
> [@Knowledgable](#): > > . . . It’s like saying I believe in God because the Bible tells me to do so and the Bible was written by God itself so it must be universally true. See what I mean there? It’s a paradox . . . Not a paradox, exactly, but very certainly circular reasoning. And definitely irritating, and terribly, terribly commonplace. I knew a guy who belonged to one of those Christian offshoots who hold that, if you start off the day “right with God,” you cannot be hurt that day. Well, he stopped believing that nonsense when he had a serious auto accident and lost a leg. He realized that he had been set up with circular reasoning. “Wait, wait, I was hurt that day!” “Well, then, you must not have been ‘right with God.’” What’s sad is that it took such an accident for him to see through the logical fallacy. (It was almost a logical phallusy, too, because the injuries didn’t stop at the top of his leg.) ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/231 "2014-09-18T14:05:50Z")
Well, I thought we’d killed this thread. Oh yeah, we had, which is why it’s not officially a zombie! > [@Knowledgable](#): > > **Q:** There is as much hard empirical evidence for the existence of god as there is for the existence of the flying spagetti monster. Seriously. If God does exist then there is absolutely no difference between our universe and a universe where he doesn’t exist. While I agree with your post, especially as improved by **Trinopus** , I wish people wouldn’t trot out this dog because it just won’t hunt. There’s a big difference between God and the FSM. The latter is fairly well-defined, known fiction. The former is an ill-defined concept, but by some definitions might be worth considering in terms of discussion. Is it possible that we all have a creator? Yeah, that’s conceivable. There’s no evidence for it, but it’s certainly a more worthy question to ponder than whether the Tooth Fairy exists. And while there may be no evidence, there may be philosophical arguments to support it. None that I buy, though. It certainly isn’t a simpler answer to the question of existence, and it’s a circular one as well. And even if we all were created by some being does that give that being the right to define morality? According to Sartre et. al., no, and I have to acknowledge the wisdom of their arguments. Oops, wrong thread. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/232 "2014-09-18T14:40:30Z")
> [@jck630](#): > > First of all I would like to say that the Bible has never and will never contradict itself. Apparently, you’ve never cracked it open, then. > [@](#): > > If you read it at face value in the current translations then it will be easy for someone to be misled. You need to take it back to its original language to get the full meaning of what is being conveyed. But that alone will not necessarily help you. Please explain to me why god is (apparently) making this so difficult. Also, I’d love to see a demonstration that YOU are proficient in “its original language.” (Hint: there is more than one language that appeared in original bible texts. English isn’t one of them, not even King James’s English, just FYI.) > [@](#): > > If we see things in this world or universe as mutually exclusive from Christianity in any way then we are saying that God is not Lord over it. God is either Lord over everything or Lord over nothing. Indeed. What we see is there is no god. Or gods. > [@](#): > > God didn’t design and create us to worship him. Little of the behavior ascribed to god in the bible makes a lick of sense. > [@](#): > > So even as a professed Christian we may choose not to partake in that relationship and therefore we experience death in our lives. I’m pretty sure every single human experiences death. > [@](#): > > Faith is not something we possess on our own and use it to activate God in our lives. That’s true. Faith is something gullible people use to cling to beliefs that are in direct contradiction to reality. > [@](#): > > We can prove with science all day long that God is real… Let’s see your proof. I’m interested. > [@](#): > > Everything else here is to help confirm, test, and compliment his Word to know that total objective Truth lies in him and him alone. If this is true, there’s little of it evident in the bible. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/233 "2014-09-18T15:34:12Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > I’m pretty sure every single human experiences death. no – while every single human may “die” - to say they “experience death” suggests that there is something to experience once “dead”. You can experience “dieing” - you can’t experience “dead” (or atleast, no one has lived to describe what that experience was) ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/234 "2014-09-18T15:51:28Z")
> [@jck630](#): > > First of all I would like to say that the Bible has never and will never contradict itself. If you read it at face value in the current translations then it will be easy for someone to be misled. You need to take it back to its original language to get the full meaning of what is being conveyed. But that alone will not necessarily help you. Well obviously, if you start from the position of “this cannot possibly be wrong”, then you can find a way out of any conundrum. The bible could contain a passage saying “God’s nature is perfectly merciful and this means explicitly that he would never kill a human”, and then the next passage could contain “God smote Jeckel for picking up sticks on the sabbath with lightning”, and you’d find a way around that. What’s more, your way of getting around this is funny, in that it completely discredits the bible. No, seriously - your claim that any perceived error is a translation problem means that basically _every_ contemporary bible is a flawed, unreliable document that _cannot be trusted_. Whoops. And because we don’t _have_ the founding documents in their original form (and indeed, that’d be no guarantee we’d know how to read them, or that you could even translate it in the first place!), that means we’re basically SOL. If the bible had a message for us, oh well - we can’t get at it. > [@](#): > > If we see things in this world or universe as mutually exclusive from Christianity in any way then we are saying that God is not Lord over it. God is either Lord over everything or Lord over nothing. So in other words things such as math and science, medicine, etc. are here for us to confirm or compliment his word in which it does. Math: has nothing to say about god. Is essentially made-up frameworks that by design often have uses in describing or understanding the real world. Science: has done nothing to confirm the existence of god, but has done a lot to destroy the historicity of the bible - such as demonstrating quite convincingly that Noah’s Flood could not have been global or have lasted very long, that the earth is neither flat nor the center of the universe, and that the Israelites were never enslaved within Jesus. Medicine: Hoo boy. Do you _really_ want to talk about medicine when the nicest thing you can say about faith healing is “if people don’t know you are praying for them, it doesn’t make things worse”? > [@](#): > > God didn’t design and create us to worship him. What could we possibly give him that he already doesn’t have. Just like I didn’t have children for them to serve me or worship me but to have a relationship with them and share my life with them and influence them in truth. Yes, and if they choose not to share that relationship with you, you lock them in the basement and set them on fire for a few years. That’ll teach 'em! ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/235 "2014-09-18T16:38:57Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Well obviously, if you start from the position of “this cannot possibly be wrong”, then you can find a way out of any conundrum. The bible could contain a passage saying “God’s nature is perfectly merciful and this means explicitly that he would never kill a human”, and then the next passage could contain “God smote Jeckel for picking up sticks on the sabbath with lightning”, and you’d find a way around that. Demons are always picking up sticks on the sabbath. Stupid demons. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/236 "2014-09-18T22:10:20Z")
> [@simster](#): > > no – while every single human may “die” - to say they “experience death” suggests that there is something to experience once “dead”. > > You can experience “dieing” - you can’t experience “dead” (or atleast, no one has lived to describe what that experience was) Please tell me that you don’t think you made an important point with this bit of inane pedantry. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/237 "2014-09-19T01:51:22Z")
I thought “we all experience death” meant that we are all exposed to death at some point. We lose family members, or pets. We see dramas with murders and suicides and death from disease. We experience it as a real part of the overall experience of life. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/238 "2014-09-20T03:10:57Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Please tell me that you don’t think you made an important point with this bit of inane pedantry. Pedantic or not, religion gets its power based on selling an expectation of experience “after death”. Martyrs for Islam are promised 72 virgins in the “after life” - Christians are taught heaven vs hell - etc. Your statement “everyone experiences death” (aside from Trinopus take on the comment) - is exactly what religion teaches their followers to fear - and/or what they must do to get a “reward”. It’s how religion holds its power over people. So yeah, maybe needlessly pedantic - I know what you meant - that “death” is the reality that everyone must face and that there is nothing after. It’s simply not an “experience”. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/239 "2014-09-20T11:24:03Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Bullshit. I question religion - mine and others - at least once a day. Literally. I question, I muse, I contemplate, I wonder…and I’m one of the more religious/spiritual people I know 9/10 of the time. Anyone who doesn’t want you to question is a cult leader, not a religious person. Religion/spirituality is, to me, the very \*act \*of questioning. > Why why why why why? Why throw out God with the Christians? I’m not saying you have to accept God, just that that’s akin to saying, “For the purposes of this thread, chosing an apprentice works like it does on Trump’s show. Here’s the problems I have with Trump’s show: he’s abusive, demeaning and a big old doody head, and his apprentice-wannabes are backstabbing troglodytes who are more interested in their own welfare than in really learning from him. Why should I chose an apprentice?” > Christian answer: so that people would understand the severity of the consequences of their actions. It was a wake up call. Think of the impact it would have if every legislator who voted for war had a child who was a soldier on the ground. It would A) make them think twice and B) make other people realize that they really, truly did believe the course of action was necessary, because they have something very valuable at stake. > > My answer: Christ was one of many solar death gods, created when people realized that stuff that dies in the fall (like grain) is reborn again in the spring because of the power of the sun. > My answer: God specifically says in the Bible that he’s not the only God - that there are others, and he’s jealous of them. I have no problem with the concept of a Venusian god and a Betelguesian god and a Sol god. (Although, really, I think that God is one Divine force that’s more or less a mad scientist. Life probably does exist on other planets because they’re like other playgrounds for God to play in, too. Or other petrie dishes, to avoid mixing the metaphor.) > Christianity is the protduct of a messianic middle east cult, yes. God/dess/es was Divine before there was Christ. > > Oh, come now, this is too easy. My husband calls me Sweetie and my kids call me Mom and my Doper friends call me WhyNot. Sweetie, Mom and WhyNot are all the same person, but we’re different identities at the same time. If you start calling me Sweetie, you’re talking to wrong person, even though it’s me. > > Why must life be fun? Who promised that? > > I think, like buildings and art, that 90% of miracles are crap. That is, they’re tiny and personal and won’t mean a thing if I share mine with you; they won’t be written down anywhere to last. The really big ones, the ones worthy of being made public, are few and far between. I strongly suspect that many millennia of big miracles passed on orally were compressed into the few hundred years covered by the Bible. > > I don’t believe in hell, so I can’t help you here. Sorry. > > S/he doesn’t. But you might find that your life is improved if/when you worship. I do. I can’t promise anything for anyone else, of course. > > That’s not my concept of heaven, so I can’t explain it. My concept of heaven is a timeless pausing point where I temporarily regain my Divine sense of perspective and choose what games I’d like to play and lessons I’d like to take in my next incarnation. There’s also opportunity there to make bonds and agreements with other souls to help me and accept my help during their next lifetime. (Of course, the separateness of these souls is merely illusory, we’re all one at this stage.) > > Right. 'Cause it was written by people, not God. > > Ok, it’s trite, but I think it’s true: “God answers every prayer. Sometimes the answer is, ‘no.’” You just have to listen. > > Yep, you’re right. > > Back to Sunday school for you. Jesus didn’t remove Original Sin. That one’s still going strong, and has nothing to do with the Garden of Eden (Original Sin is that your parents had sex to conceive you. You are stained with your father’s spunk.) Jesus’ sacrifice removed the taint of people-doing-bad-stuff sin that had tainted humanity beyond reclamation by ordinary means. > > Yep, you’re right. > Yep, right again. Doesn’t matter. Live your life as makes you and people around you happy and then you’ll die. That’s it. Saint or martyr or Joe the Plumber, you die, we stand around your grave for 15 minutes weeping and wailing, and then we’ll go to lunch. > > But, as I said before, some people are many happy or find their lives run more smoothly if they practice some sort of religion. You may or may not. I do. > > 'Cause it’s not. People conflate their will with the will of God all the time. News at 11. > > Again, who said life was supposed to be fun, or easy, or pleasant? Not God, that’s for sure. And, much as I find lazing around in bliss a nice thing to do, it does begin to pall after a week or so. (As you yourself say of heaven, remember.) Challenge and even suffering bear out their own rewards. Otherwise, why would people chose to be marathon runners, or teach in inner city schools or parent children? > > I believe you. And I strongly suggest you check out some other religions - namely, based on what you’ve said here, Buddhism - before deciding that the whole concept of religion is not for you. I can well believe Christianity isn’t, but something else may be. > > WhyNot, > (Sometimes Agnostic, but not today) Eclectic Neopagan I wonder why if God is better than a human father, why does he need his children to beg for what they need. I am a human without the full knowledge of what is best or harmful to my child, and I would not kill them because they disobeyed me. Why is it that one doesn’t really Get to know God Just believe, A good father makes sure his children know him. and they give or reject what their parent know what is good for the child, and to me prayer means a lack of trust that the heavenly father holds back until a certain amount of prayers are said for their needs ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2014, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/240 "2014-09-20T11:26:10Z")
According to the Bible, Jesus said his purpose in coming was for the lost sheep of Israel not to save the world. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785.md?page=13)