# 25 things which make it hard for me to believe in God **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2009, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785 "2009-02-28T12:45:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/121 "2009-03-04T04:43:38Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Pssstt… **monstro** …I think you’ve been whooshed. To be clear, I think the argument the Supreme Deity has conflicting elements, and that salvation occurred due to our Savior, etc. etc. is eminently defensible. Methinks most Hollywood productions involve less emotional credibility. I think problem #1 can be handled by any decent Jesuit: he wouldn’t even have to be sober. Similarly, the mystical constituency should have no problem appreciating its subtlety, if you want to call it that. Whether this story is an accurate depiction of reality is a separate matter. > [@monstro](#): > > This makes absolutely no sense. Jesus is God. So God saved us. Heresy. If Jesus was purely divine, that means he wasn’t a man - and that’s heresy. Sabellianist or Docetist heresy, for example. [CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Docetae](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05070c.htm) I’m shocked - shocked! More seriously, my understanding is that the Trinity was essentially a compromise between unacceptable extremes: they couldn’t permit Jesus to be wholly God or Man, so they came up with something that would have made any committee proud, or at least mollified. **DtC** has pointed out elsewhere that Original Sin is an extra-biblical interpretation. Then again, so is the debate about the extent of Jesus’ divinity. > [@TooSchoolforCool](#): > > But the problem we have is that the entire process here, while it seems to borrow familiar elements, doesn’t really make sense as a whole. We human beings have a sense that sacrifice is important and noble. And we have an idea that justice is very important. But none of these elements really make sense when arranged into the basic argument and moral logic that the crucifixion supposes. Because it edits out or recasts all the conventional elements that would normally make those things make any sense. ## Empirically, the story is appealing – otherwise Christianity wouldn’t have 2000 years of staying power. Perhaps the conceptual dissonance plays a role. Rhetorical question: which set of questions pose the greatest challenge? I’d say that it’s the first clause in post #84 by DtC, followed by the problem of evil, then perhaps reason #25 of my post #60, due to its quirkiness. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/122 "2009-03-04T04:55:53Z")
> [@wsbenge](#): > > He sacrificed … a boat load of pain that He could have foregone. He made Himself a beacon. The question is why was any sacrifice necessary at all since he was only saving people from his own self and his own rules? Why not just change the rules? What did the crucifixion accomplish that he coouldn’t have accomplished _without_ a crucifixion. There’s no logic in it asa means to an end. Omnipotent beings don’t need means to ends. They just will theends. As for being a beacon – a beacon to to who, and for what reason? If the event was supposed to be a beacon, why was it such a weak one? Why not provide any proof for it to anyone who didn’t directly see it? If there was something he needed people to know, then why doesn’t he just go on TV and say it? > [@](#): > > Even isolating “illumination” to the Judeo-Christian history, God leaves people to their own devices for most of the time, and gives humanity a nudge now and then. He gives them a nudge how? Cite that he gives people nudges? > [@](#): > > What will we really do, if we think no one is looking? The question is why should anyone believe he exists if he isn’t going to prove it? Where does he get the moral authority to expect _any_ kind of particular behavior or beliefs if he won’t clearlt reveal that he exists or what he expects? > [@](#): > > Terminally ill kids…Human life is brutal. Rumor has it a few have been spared, but that is somewhat debatable as to whether death was avoided. If we have an immortal soul, there is likely a lot more going on that we know about. How is this an answer or a justification foranything? > [@](#): > > Miracles only happen when people get off of the script What script? Is everyone in the world on script now? > [@](#): > > or to illustrate there is more to life than what we see. This doesn’t really have much content as an answer to the question, does it? > [@](#): > > probably a matter of reference, since we don’t know much about either heaven, or hell. I suspect souls are not created by human birth, but rather placed. Ecclesiastes… The spirit returns to God, who gave it. Again, not really an answer to the question. Are moms in heaven completely content with their children being tortured foever? > [@](#): > > Eternal punishment, is probably the stubborn person who refuses to get in the life boat. Matter of choice, it seems. Humanity is inherently stupid. Blame the victim, huh? No, the only one who has a choice about it is God. God has the power to stop the punishment anytime he wants. What purpose does it serve anyway? > [@](#): > > What is worship? Living ones live accordingly. Singing songs, and groveling is optionional. People who worship God walk the talk. People always do what they believe. What’s wrong with just living life as a good person without kissing God’s ass? Why does he need his ego gratified? > [@](#): > > Worship is just living one’s life accordingly, one day at a time. Not boring. I don’t really know what this means. “Living one’s life accordingly?” According to what? > [@](#): > > I do think there are translation and interpretation problems. People are stupid. It’s not just translation problems. The contradictions and errors are present in the original languages and text sources. > [@](#): > > We don’t even know who, or what we are. What would we know about our own original sin? Well one thing we can know is that it’s not in the Bible. We can also know that the idea of “inherited sin” is logically incompatible with a belief that people can be morally accountable. > [@](#): > > Lust, and envy, is defeated by awareness. Awareness of what? > [@](#): > > Free will is about individual human choice. So God doesn’t have free will? > [@](#): > > Once the premise, “God exists”, is in motion, the one where He doesn’t, is impossible. Huh? What? How does the mere existence of a hyothesis make the null-hypothesis “impossible?” > [@](#): > > Even taking all of the UFO sightings, that have beings driving them, just ONE valid sighting, down through the centuries, makes extraterestrials exist. Their relationship to us, is an unknown. So you’re saying if it can be proven that extraterrestrials exist, it will be proven that extraterrestrials exist? Yes, that’s true. So what? What does that have to do with gods? What evidence exists for God that does not exist for the FSG? > [@](#): > > Because we are immortal. Everyone gets their choices. They get their chances after death? In that case, why bother setting up any churches or ministries at all on earth? Why talk yourself blue in the face trying to sell your far-fetched story on earth, when the people you’re selling to can just get save personally by Jesus after they die? > [@](#): > > because human life sucks, and then you die. Adversity is the rule. If you believe in God, then this is only the rule because God says so. Why is this God’s rule? > [@](#): > > Absolutely. It isn’t about whether we live or die, or whether we hurt. > [@](#): > > The concept of the Fall of Man suggests we chose what we get. We have amnesia. Doesn’t matter if we do not remember. Not important. This is logical gibberish. How can we have “chosen” something that happened before we were born? > [@](#): > > From my observation, such cures are rather rare. About as rare as unicorns. ---
**Author:** ![wsbenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b38774/32.png) [@wsbenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wsbenge)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/123 "2009-03-04T05:59:13Z")
Diogeneses, I don’t think it even matters whether a person is Hindu, Christain, Muslim, Atheist … or isolated member of a tribe at the edge of the world. Everyone has a concept of correct, or incorrect behavior. I think we are evaluated based upon how we act on those concepts. Doesn’t matter if we are in God’s baby crib, or prison. Hell. Hell on Earth. If we are not immortal, doesn’t matter. If we are immortal, I find I care to find out more. There is no justification for how we got here. We are here, and can’t do a thing to change it. We are here, looking around trying to make sense of this mess. I like that name, Diogenes the Cynic. The older I get, the more cynical I get. I find the standard Christian spiel a bit short sighted, and intolerant to the point of insanity. They don’t hold the patent on that behavior though. The idea of “inherited sin” is just one example of inane stupidity. How could anyone hold me accountable for a murder committed by my grandfather? Dumb. Really dumb. Blame Adam and Eve for my problems. Are mothers in heaven content to see their children rot in Hell? As if being related to a human body genetically … matters? Someone sitting on a cloud with a harp, looking down on the rest of creation? I don’t find that idea very entertaining. 🙂 Some people do, I suppose. Some of my Aunts and Uncles. God has the power to stop punishment any time He wants? I know people who believe that. Believe in God, and are so pissed they want nothing to do with cruel Him. Of course, they are stupid enough to stick their fingers in light sockets, and turn on the switch, only to blame the electric company for the jolt. They enjoy singing, Poor Me. Anyway, gotta run. This topic could be enjoyable. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/124 "2009-03-04T07:47:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The question is why was any sacrifice necessary at all since he was only saving people from his own self and his own rules? Why not just change the rules? What did the crucifixion accomplish that he couldn’t have accomplished _without_ a crucifixion? There’s no logic in it as a means to an end. Omnipotent beings don’t need means to ends. They just will the ends. Humans treat ants like dirt. Ditto with their inanimate creations. Hey no problem: after all, we’re talking about insects and machines, right? The Lord, in all his superiority and glory, may have found it difficult to _empathize_ with humanity before manifesting himself as the Son. For Him to optimally build His Kingdom, he must sort between the quick and the dead: to sort with appropriate compassion, he must have direct contact with the travails -and most importantly the suffering- of his biped creatures. Admittedly, the preceding assumes a less-than-omnipotent creator. But the impossibility of a 3-omni God is generally accepted among Christian apologists. Of course, this side-steps the emotional core of the story. To wit: Jesus suffered and felt abandonment, so maybe he’ll cut you, his worshiper and child, a little slack. IIRC, **Miller** noted (in 2004) that this sort of framework was offered up by Anne Rice. But Ms. Rice maintains that she got it from her Catholic upbringing and I believe her: the above is embedded in the underlying story. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/125 "2009-03-04T08:28:39Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Admittedly, the preceding assumes a less-than-omnipotent creator. But the impossibility of a 3-omni God is generally accepted among Christian apologists. God is variously described as omnipotent and also totally incapable of affecting the surface of the Earth, as needed. Though he had the wisdom and power to come up with quantum particles, he cannot place the writings of his rules in 100 foot tall titanium pages right in front of a hundred cameras. He has to use a burning bush to tell one guy to go up a mountain all by himself and come back down with those rules, which also archaelogically appear to have been merged with and compiled from various legal sources that had no historical relation to Jewish religion… ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/126 "2009-03-04T10:03:53Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > I think it would be pretty cool if others started proselytizing Christians and telling them how many more they would save if they would just leave their missionaries back home. This is just… _beautiful_, man! I’ve never thought about it this way. Brilliant ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/127 "2009-03-04T15:07:26Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Humans treat ants like dirt. Ditto with their inanimate creations. I treat ants like ants. I don’t kill them for fun. I don’t torture them. A god who isn’t even as kind as I am is a pretty lame god. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/128 "2009-03-04T21:02:47Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > A god who isn’t even as kind as I am is a pretty lame god. Boom! Agreed in full! I think the 25 reasons in the OP show that this god IS pretty lame. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/129 "2009-03-04T22:33:37Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > And for the “long periods without any miraculous intervention”, it seemed to be a hell of a lot more personal back in biblical times-- Moses and the burning bush, Moses and the sacrificial Issac, Noah getting boat building plans from the sky-- also Jesus had plenty of witnesses with Lazarus, blind-guy and resurrection-- so the bible documents these ancient miracles with witnesses. Surely you can see that there’s no contradiction between me saying, “There were long periods without miraculous intervention in the Bible”, and you pointing out a few miraculous interventions in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/130 "2009-03-05T06:19:20Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > God is variously described as omnipotent and also totally incapable of affecting the surface of the Earth, as needed. > > Though he had the wisdom and power to come up with quantum particles, he cannot place the writings of his rules in 100 foot tall titanium pages right in front of a hundred cameras. He has to use a burning bush to tell one guy to go up a mountain all by himself and come back down with those rules, which also archaelogically appear to have been merged with and compiled from various legal sources that had no historical relation to Jewish religion… Well, actually he’s described as “All-mighty”, which is a little different, if I understand Revelation 19:6 properly. The issue of the extent of the Lord’s powers is separate from his motives. Both are independent of the historical accuracy of Old Testament depictions, as well as the existence question. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > I treat ants like ants. I don’t kill them for fun. I don’t torture them. > > A god who isn’t even as kind as I am is a pretty lame god. Where is the evidence that the Lord tortures for fun? Critics of the Almighty generally speak of what God _permits_ or they speak ill of His design process. Among humans, in contrast, whole industries are devoted to the intentional eradication of ant colonies. And roach motels are simply sadistic. Philosophers note that there is a Problem of Good as well as a Problem of Evil. For example, a truly evil God could topple the economic growth process with some rather subtle interventions. Human society can be surprisingly fragile. ---
**Author:** ![lurker13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/779978/32.png) [@lurker13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurker13)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/131 "2009-03-05T06:51:27Z")
God did exist, he died, he was very small. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3eTsNEgmL8](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3eTsNEgmL8) Back to lurking. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/132 "2009-03-05T07:45:07Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Philosophers note that there is a Problem of Good as well as a Problem of Evil. For example, a truly evil God could topple the economic growth process with some rather subtle interventions. Human society can be surprisingly fragile. Not really. Assuming that God is real, and evil, all the good things you see could just be tools designed to give you false hope. And all the nice things you hear about God could be lies deliberately spread by him, so that when his followers are cast into hell along with everyone else, the fact that they were betrayed will make their suffering that much worse, and that much more entertaining. IIRC, Isaac Asimov ( ? ) wrote a somewhat story like that, where God created a false image of himself as good, so that mortals would hate him more when they died and found it was a lie, and that they were all to be punished eternally. Except in that case, it was that God was suicidal, and wanted as many people as possible thinking about how to kill an omnipotent immortal. An evil God is easier to justify than a good one, because explanations like “He’s just screwing with your head for fun” don’t contradict it. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/133 "2009-03-05T08:15:48Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Philosophers note that there is a Problem of Good as well as a Problem of Evil. For example, a truly evil God could topple the economic growth process with some rather subtle interventions. Human society can be surprisingly fragile. I couldn’t disagree more. God could easily be evil without being [Stupid Evil](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupidChaoticStupid). While being good means avoiding evil acts, being evil just means you’re _willing_ to do evil things if they serve your purposes. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/134 "2009-03-05T13:30:55Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Where is the evidence that the Lord tortures for fun? You mean he tortures for other reasons than fun? Is that supposed to be better? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/135 "2009-03-05T14:13:44Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > God is variously described as omnipotent and also totally incapable of affecting the surface of the Earth, as needed. > > Though he had the wisdom and power to come up with quantum particles, he cannot place the writings of his rules in 100 foot tall titanium pages right in front of a hundred cameras. He has to use a burning bush to tell one guy to go up a mountain all by himself and come back down with those rules, which also archaelogically appear to have been merged with and compiled from various legal sources that had no historical relation to Jewish religion… God is described as anything the mind can imagine by men from all ages of time. But he placed His love in the human heart along with all necessary knowledge of how to use it. Some find it there and others are still looking. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/136 "2009-03-05T14:53:04Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You mean he tortures for other reasons than fun? Is that supposed to be better? Well, he tortured to prove a point. Preventing a terrorist attack, well, he didn’t bother. Huh. Jack Bauer has better morals than gawd. Who would have thought? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/137 "2009-03-05T16:29:30Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > God is described as anything the mind can imagine by men from all ages of time. We finally agree on something. And if everyone has a different description of god, and their statements contradict one another, that is okay too, since a creative imagination gets you bonus points, while logic, that’ll just get you in trouble. Hey, thanks **Princhester**. razncain ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/138 "2009-03-06T01:53:46Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You mean he tortures for other reasons than fun? Is that supposed to be better? Er, no. > [@measure for measure](#): > > Critics of the Almighty generally speak of what God permits or they speak ill of His design process. That is, there’s no evidence that God tortures at all, while there is strong evidence that He permits suffering to continue. Big difference. > [@Grumman](#): > > God could easily be evil without being Stupid Evil. While being good means avoiding evil acts, being evil just means you’re willing to do evil things if they serve your purposes. Ok, we’ve ruled out the possibility that G-d has a Stupid Evil alignment. (See Grumman’s helpful link.) If we’re going to get granular, which of the evil alignments do you hypothesize for G-d? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/139 "2009-03-06T02:01:06Z")
The evil god could also not be entirely preoccupied with us. A slightly apathetic or distracted god (which is compatible with an evil god, but not a good one, because they have _responsibilities_) could easily have just decided to make an unfair, unjust, dangerous world, and might only interact with it periodically, perhaps to make really bad things happen, while often just not giving a crap about the scraps of good that happen where he’s not actively spreading evil. When frying ants with a magnifying glass, you are not _obligated_ to fry all of them. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785/140 "2009-03-06T02:04:56Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Surely you can see that there’s no contradiction between me saying, “There were long periods without miraculous intervention in the Bible”, and you pointing out a few miraculous interventions in the Bible. Perhaps, but I’m leaning toward the physical aspect in the bible. Burning bush, witnesses to jesus’ miracles, Noah parting the red sea-- In today’s times, never happens. the closest we get is something out of Joseph Smith, or an NDE claimer saying “I met Jesus! He sent me back!” No witnesses, no charred leaves, even. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-things-which-make-it-hard-for-me-to-believe-in-god/487785.md?page=8)