# 25 years ago today-- ST2: The Wrath Of Khan **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 4, 2007, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-years-ago-today-st2-the-wrath-of-khan/406760 "2007-06-04T22:38:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-years-ago-today-st2-the-wrath-of-khan/406760/21 "2007-06-05T13:09:02Z")
[QUOTE=Hypno-Toad] I remember hearing Ricardo Montalban talking about his part. He said he played the part as if Khan (sorry, I mean KHAAAAAAAN!) were the hero taking revenge on an evil _Admiral_ Kirk. [/QUOTE] Montalban also rewatched the _Space Seed_ episode over and over again, so he could remember what he was thinking when he originally played the role. On the director’s commentary of the deluxe edition of the DVD, Nicolas Meyer says that Montalban was probably one of the best actor’s he’d worked with, and he felt it was a great loss that Montalban never got very many good roles. He also says, in the great reveal scene, “I have only one thing to say: That _is_ Ricardo Montalban’s chest.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-years-ago-today-st2-the-wrath-of-khan/406760/22 "2007-06-05T13:18:11Z")
I saw an interview with Montalban many years ago, where he was talking about the differences between “Space Seed” Khan and “ST2” Khan, and he demonstrated by saying a line in each character. It was great – not in an exagerrated, over the top way, but depicting character by emphasis and nuance. Very impressive acting. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-years-ago-today-st2-the-wrath-of-khan/406760/23 "2007-06-05T13:39:23Z")
[QUOTE=Hypno-Toad] evil _Admiral_ Kirk [/QUOTE] _Admiral_?! _Ad_miral … ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-years-ago-today-st2-the-wrath-of-khan/406760/24 "2007-06-05T15:10:58Z")
I first saw it the Friday night it was released. I was in boarding school in Pittsburgh at the time, and several students were marooned on campus for the weekend but were dying to see it. One of the faculty members and his girlfriend took us out to see it. The movie blew me away. I’ve probably seen it a half-dozen times since. Most recently, I saw it a few months ago with my 10-year-old son, who’s quickly becoming a hardcore Trekker (with my encouragement, of course). He thought the Ceti eels were wonderfully yucky. “Wrath of Khan” is a powerful, moving, well-crafted science fiction movie by any standard - but a close second, IMHO, to “First Contact,” among the Trek movies. Now we’re watching “The Undiscovered Country,” and my 7-year-old son said of Lt. Valeris early on, “I think she’s up to something…” ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-years-ago-today-st2-the-wrath-of-khan/406760/25 "2007-06-05T18:41:57Z")
I remember reading a review of TWOK at the time it came out which called Ricardo Montalban “hilariously miscast” as Khan. The reviewer apparently hadn’t watched “Space Seed” nor even a single ST episode. How could a role played by the original actor be “miscast?” Khan also gave us that old Klingon proverb. I think it was “revenge is like a dish of cold cuts.” Or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-years-ago-today-st2-the-wrath-of-khan/406760/26 "2007-06-05T18:58:54Z")
Ah, fond memories, but not without a touch of irritation. I saw it like 4 times, and each time it got spillover from the losers who got turned away from Fast Times at Ridgemont High because they were too young. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-years-ago-today-st2-the-wrath-of-khan/406760/27 "2007-06-05T19:06:08Z")
[QUOTE=cochrane] Khan also gave us that old Klingon proverb. I think it was “revenge is like a dish of cold cuts.” Or something like that. [/QUOTE] “Revenge is a dish best served cold” And where did Khan hear any _Klingon_ proverbs? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-years-ago-today-st2-the-wrath-of-khan/406760/28 "2007-06-05T19:20:50Z")
[QUOTE=Hypno-Toad] “Revenge is a dish best served cold” And where did Khan hear any _Klingon_ proverbs? [/QUOTE] Presumably in _Space Seed_ when he was doing all that fast speed reading in sick bay. Or perhaps some of the stuff _Enterprise_ left them with on Ceta Alpha V was a book on Klingon philosophy, such as “The Duckling with Wrinkled Forehead.” Once, a young swan whose parents had been treacherously slain lived with ducklings. His foster siblings tormented him constantly. “Leave me alone, or I will kill you, right here, right now!” cried the Swan. Realizing that he was a danger to them, the ducklings being more numerous, tore him apart and ate his flesh while he yet lived. The moral: Never tell your enemies your plans. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-years-ago-today-st2-the-wrath-of-khan/406760/29 "2007-06-05T19:23:11Z")
[QUOTE=Hypno-Toad] “Revenge is a dish best served cold” And where did Khan hear any _Klingon_ proverbs? [/QUOTE] On Ceti Alpha V there was an old DVD player with a copy of Kill Bill, Vol. I. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-years-ago-today-st2-the-wrath-of-khan/406760/30 "2007-06-05T19:29:19Z")
For that matter, why would Khan have a (broken) metal Starfleet insignia medallion? [http://www.space-debris.com/st\_montalban\_trek2.jpg](http://www.space-debris.com/st_montalban_trek2.jpg) They weren’t adopted until after he was marooned. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-years-ago-today-st2-the-wrath-of-khan/406760/31 "2007-06-05T19:30:15Z")
[QUOTE=Hypno-Toad] “Revenge is a dish best served cold” And where did Khan hear any _Klingon_ proverbs? [/QUOTE] It’s a Romulan proverb. ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-years-ago-today-st2-the-wrath-of-khan/406760/32 "2007-06-05T19:37:27Z")
The bigger question is: if Khan is one of these genetically enhanced people, why has he aged like the normal people? Shouldn’t he only look like five years older? ---
**Author:** ![fuffle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fuffle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuffle)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-years-ago-today-st2-the-wrath-of-khan/406760/33 "2007-06-05T19:54:59Z")
They replayed TWOK at my local theater not too long ago. I nearly drove off the road in shock when I saw the movie name on the sign. I went to see it with a great deal of trepidation, figuring it was going to be an older crowd and a rowdy event with people heckling and whatnot. I was amazed to see people from 10 to 50, all respectful and totally engrossed in the movie. A couple college boys had brought their girlfriends, who experienced the ear stuff for the very first time and (what with their sincere and horrified reactions) gave us all a vicarious thrill. And right before the line…you know the one…the entire audience went silent. Anticipation gripped us all, bound us together in movie-watching bliss…and when he said it, applause and cheers broke out immediately. Hands down the greatest movie-watching experience of my life. Star Trek fans, I salute you. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-years-ago-today-st2-the-wrath-of-khan/406760/34 "2007-06-05T20:07:13Z")
1. It was clearly the best of the Star Trek movies. 2. It was made much better to watch because it was sooooooooo much better than the rather insipid ST:TMP; I remember dreading the possibility that it would be just as bad. 3. Ricardo Montalban’s acting was so much better than William Shatner’s that it’s almost amazing that anyone could ever think of Shatner as an actor afterwards. 4. I cried when Spock died. 5. Sigh. They shoulda left him dead. 6. I still laugh at the whole “3-D” bit. You’ll notice that Kirk may think three dimensionally, but he still orients to the same plane. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-years-ago-today-st2-the-wrath-of-khan/406760/35 "2007-06-05T20:19:02Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] 2. It was made much better to watch because it was sooooooooo much better than the rather insipid ST:TMP; I remember dreading the possibility that it would be just as bad. [/QUOTE] Not me. Roger Ebert was very clear on how good it was. One of his comments was that a villain with a personal vendetta is far more interesting than one who merely wants to take over the universe. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-years-ago-today-st2-the-wrath-of-khan/406760/36 "2007-06-05T20:24:40Z")
I saw all three or four versions. :o ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-years-ago-today-st2-the-wrath-of-khan/406760/37 "2007-06-05T20:31:27Z")
[QUOTE=ivylass] It’s a Romulan proverb. [/QUOTE] Nope. Klingon (actually Arab, but they stole it from the Klingon’s I’m sure). [Khan]Kirk, my old friend, are you familiar with the Klingon proverb that revenge is a dish best served cold? It is very cold in space. [/Khan] ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-years-ago-today-st2-the-wrath-of-khan/406760/38 "2007-06-05T20:36:17Z")
It was the best of those movies ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-years-ago-today-st2-the-wrath-of-khan/406760/39 "2007-06-05T20:42:56Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] Nope. Klingon (actually Arab, but they stole it from the Klingon’s I’m sure). [Khan]Kirk, my old friend, are you familiar with the Klingon proverb that revenge is a dish best served cold? It is very cold in space. [/Khan] [/QUOTE] OK, now I’m curious, where is this quote actually from? Wiki gives this (uncited): > [@wiki](#): > > The proverb “revenge is a dish best served cold” is credited to the 18th century novel les Liaisons dangereuses (Dangerous Liaisons), written by the French official and army general Pierre Choderlos de Laclos (although it never actually appears in the original text). Although the first time this phrase is believed to have been used in its English form was in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. I don’t understand how it can be credited to a book in which it doesn’t appear? DO they mean it was added in a later addition. And I couldn’t find anything about it being arab in origin, though a couple other random google hits mentioned both Laclos and WoK as the original source. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-years-ago-today-st2-the-wrath-of-khan/406760/40 "2007-06-05T20:56:35Z")
[QUOTE=Malodorous] I don’t understand how it can be credited to a book in which it doesn’t appear? DO they mean it was added in a later addition. And I couldn’t find anything about it being arab in origin, though a couple other random google hits mentioned both Laclos and WoK as the original source. [/QUOTE] Dunno, and I can’t remember where I read that it’s an Arab proverb. Perhaps here? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-years-ago-today-st2-the-wrath-of-khan/406760.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25-years-ago-today-st2-the-wrath-of-khan/406760.md?page=3)