# 25th Amendment - Can never happen **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 9, 2025, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-can-never-happen/1016822 "2025-04-09T05:51:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-can-never-happen/1016822/41 "2025-04-10T17:23:58Z")
> [@SunUp](#): > > “Thank you Mr. Trump, here’s the list I’ll be going with.” As MAGA as Vance is, how different would those two lists be? I just brought the scenario up as another way we get a doomsday Trump x 3 ---
**Author:** ![SunUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SunUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunUp)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-can-never-happen/1016822/42 "2025-04-10T17:29:54Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > As MAGA as Vance is, how different would those two lists be? > I just brought the scenario up as another way we get a doomsday Trump x 3 Vance has four years to create a power base loyal and beholden to him, that will be dedicated to his version of MAGA. I agree that your scenario is a way for it to happen; I don’t think it’s a viable one for Trump to take because he would be dependent on someone else acting against their interests. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-can-never-happen/1016822/43 "2025-04-10T17:34:56Z")
Assuming for the sake of argument that the majority of voters really WANT a third Trump term, the easy way to do it without mucking about with the Constitution would just be to elect one of his dumbshit family members, who aren’t smart enough to create their own power bases and would reliably just do whatever the cheeto-faced shitgibbon told them to do. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-can-never-happen/1016822/44 "2025-04-10T17:47:13Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > He’s not ineligible to become President. Just ineligible to be **elected** President again. Does anybody think that the people flagrantly violating court orders and core elements of the Constitution are concerned with such rules-lawyering gotcha-yas? I’m still thinking that the man who has this level of cogency at age 79 in 2025 is not going to be able to make the argument. If we’ve learned nothing from the medieval petty kingships that are his model of government (even if he doesn’t know it), it’s that there are always people willing to lie, cheat, steal, and kill in order to get the power that he has. I can’t imagine that his core of sycophants actually like him or want him in power; they just like the access to power they get through him. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-can-never-happen/1016822/45 "2025-04-10T18:07:04Z")
> [@SunUp](#): > > I don’t think it’s a viable one for Trump to take because he would be dependent on someone else acting against their interests. I agree BUT how senile will he be in 3.5 years to think all will do his bidding. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Does anybody think that the people flagrantly violating court orders and core elements of the Constitution are concerned with such rules-lawyering gotcha-yas? Yes because it serves their purpose if SCOTUS says there is an end around for him o become President. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-can-never-happen/1016822/46 "2025-04-10T18:11:03Z")
Group dynamics create a wondrous cohesion, I don’t see how somebody would ever invoque the 25th bar coma or the already mentioned disabling shot in the brain. People stay together and sometimes even die together, and it is not necessarily out of loyalty. Here, for instance, is the story of Mussolini’s last three days as told in _The Atlantic_ at the time it happened: > **[The Last Three Days of Mussolini](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1945/12/the-last-three-days-of-mussolini/656578/?gift=cU4WmXraWG3WoSDDx6g_kfNHWeMaY8Rbokp_tMvFR2Q&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share)** > > “Il Duce slumped, first falling to his knees, then leaning sideways against the wall.” Not only his mistress, but 17 other loyalists stayed by his side until the end. The same happened _mutatis mutandis_ with Reagan, Biden, and will happen with trump too. I think the OP is right: it is very very unlikely that it ever happens, except if the president is obviously a vegetable. A lettuce, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Sooner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sooner/32/7875_2.png) [@Sooner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sooner)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-can-never-happen/1016822/47 "2025-04-11T04:21:17Z")
That is fine if the senate is not Trump toadies, who already long since been told who they would ultimately affirm ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-can-never-happen/1016822/48 "2025-04-11T06:19:03Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > He’s not ineligible to become President. Just ineligible to be **elected** President again. Which means he’s also ineligible to be elected Vice President. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-can-never-happen/1016822/49 "2025-04-11T12:30:37Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > the intent of the 25th Amendment wasn’t to facilitate the removal of a President who is ill prepared to engage in a political debate or win an election. Right. Political failure, or for that matter trade policy failure or just being a dick, are not disabilities. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2025, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-can-never-happen/1016822/50 "2025-04-11T13:33:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Which means he’s also ineligible to be elected Vice President. We’ve gone over his in another thread. Proof was shown that that is not true. Congress purposely changed becoming President to elected President. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-can-never-happen/1016822/51 "2025-04-14T10:33:32Z")
I think those here who have said that the 25th amendment could only be successfully invoked in the case of a fully incapacitated president are correct. The big problem is that, in most cases, it is in the self-interest of the cabinet to keep the president propped up to maintain the veneer of a viable administration as well as not to incur the president’s wrath and potential retribution by trying to remove him or her. To take the current psychopathic and demented president as an example, I’m sure, if faced with the prospect of removal via the 25th, Trump would use every resource at his disposal to prevent it, including the declaration of martial law or otherwise appealing to the military. If the removal failed, everyone involved would be in very hot water. It’s like the impeachment process: broken from the beginning and not going to work. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-can-never-happen/1016822/52 "2025-04-14T14:56:52Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > I think those here who have said that the 25th amendment could only be successfully invoked in the case of a fully incapacitated president are correct. And TBF that seems to have been the intent by design — as seen how it provides explicitly for the case that the POTUS is still in shape enough to actually _dispute_ his own relief. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-can-never-happen/1016822/53 "2025-04-14T15:04:51Z")
As with impeachment, if removal is too easy, then it can be used as a political weapon, but if it’s too difficult… then it can’t be used at all. It’s hard to see how to get the balance right. Probably another reason why most countries have a parliamentary system instead of what we have. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2025, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-can-never-happen/1016822/54 "2025-04-14T16:37:47Z")
Some very credible people are speaking out. I don’t believe these 4 books can be easily dismissed. The Democrats missed an opportunity to field candidates in a national primary. Find a candidate that possibly could have challenged the Republican front runner. [Klain has clarified his earlier comments.](https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/5229256-former-biden-chief-of-staff-biden-trump-debate-performance/) He is more supportive of his former boss. > [@](#): > > Ron Klain, who served as Biden’s chief of staff for two years and advised him during the 2024 campaign, described to author Chris Whipple the six days the staff spent at Camp David, trying to get Biden into shape for his first and only debate with Trump. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2026, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-can-never-happen/1016822/55 "2026-02-23T01:20:41Z")
I’ve seen the 25th Amendment mentioned in some other threads and wanted to give more reasons why it can never happen. The big one may be that to last more than a short period against Trump’s will, both houses of congress have to approve the coup by a 2/3 margin. This compares to impeachment, where removal only requires 2/3 in the senate. And given that some members of Congress are rather legalistic, there’s another barrier. In the literal wording of the 25th amendment, the President has to be [“unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office.”](https://constitutioncenter.org/the-constitution/amendments/amendment-xxv) This is high barrier. Suppose he murders a family member. Then he has committed a high crime and might, conceivably, maybe, actually be impeached and removed on grounds of having committed a serious crime. But a murderer, or other criminal, can still discharge the powers of office. This is another reason why the 25th amendment takes a more votes than impeachment removal. Vance is often mentioned as part of the process. Yes. It is in his interest to elevate himself. But what about the part where the majority of the “principal officers of the executive department” have to go along? What do they get out of it? Bupkis, so they would do nothing except run to Trump and denounce the coup plot. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2026, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-can-never-happen/1016822/56 "2026-02-23T01:24:33Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > The big one may be that to last more than a short period against Trump’s will, both houses of congress have to approve the coup by a 2/3 margin. This compares to impeachment, where removal only requires 2/3 in the senate. Yeah, aint happening. IMHO even if trump goes into a coma will Congress approve this on a permanent basis- altho maybe it could be declared on a temp basis, but likely not. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2026, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-can-never-happen/1016822/57 "2026-02-23T01:40:19Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > both houses of congress have to approve the coup by a 2/3 margin. This compares to impeachment, where removal only requires 2/3 in the senate. Acting with the permission of the Constitution is in no way a “coup”. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2026, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-can-never-happen/1016822/58 "2026-02-23T01:48:59Z")
A Constitutional coup?! ::_Places fingertips on skull, then moves them outward while making a prolonged_ p‘khew _sound effect_:: The only way the 25th will ever be implemented is when the prez is alive but a vegetable. If it had been in force during Woodrow Wilson’s second term, I doubt Congress could get away with 25th-ing him. Edith would have stopped that in its tracks. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2026, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-can-never-happen/1016822/59 "2026-02-23T03:23:24Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Acting with the permission of the Constitution is in no way a “coup”. According to the Constitution, the veep, and a majority of the principal officers of the executive departments, have to give “their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office.” If Trump is protesting his dethronement, that shows he can indeed, however badly, discharge the powers and duties of his office. So it would be, at best, a [constitutional coup](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_coup), and it is highly questionable whether it is even constitutional. Now, if Trump was unable to weigh in on his removal from office, such as after a very severe stroke, that would be different. I admit that kind of 25th amendment usage can happen. What can’t happen is use of the 25th amendment to remove a President against their will. Impeachment removal, however unlikely, would happen first. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2026, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-can-never-happen/1016822/60 "2026-02-23T03:27:30Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > If Trump is protesting his dethronement, that shows he can indeed, however badly, discharge the powers and duties of his office. No, it does not. This isn’t bizarro _Catch 22_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-can-never-happen/1016822.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-can-never-happen/1016822.md?page=4)