# 25th Amendment section 4, why is no one talking about this? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 22, 2020, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-section-4-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this/928647 "2020-12-22T14:48:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2020, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-section-4-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this/928647/41 "2020-12-27T18:45:43Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > he has lawyers at his beck and call to answer any constitutional questions he may have When they do not give him the answer he wants to hear, he stops listening. It’s not a bug, it’s a feature. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2021, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-section-4-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this/928647/42 "2021-01-06T06:41:44Z")
Pence is about to be trump Enemy Number 1. trump is gonna turn of Pence like a rabid tasmanian devil. Maybe now Pence might see the writing on the wall. Get trump out before he nukes china or something. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2021, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-section-4-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this/928647/43 "2021-01-06T07:08:12Z")
No, he won’t. Pence was picked precisely because he doesn’t have the balls to stand up to him. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2021, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-section-4-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this/928647/44 "2021-01-06T19:29:25Z")
Trump just instructed a terrorist mob to storm the Capitol Building. Senators and Congress have been evacuated. It’s now definitely time for the 25th. Get him out now, before he causes more damage. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2021, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-section-4-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this/928647/45 "2021-01-06T19:42:53Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Trump just instructed a terrorist mob to storm the Capitol Building. Linky? Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2021, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-section-4-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this/928647/46 "2021-01-06T19:45:40Z")
> **[DC updates: 4 dead, 52 arrested, 14 police officers injured after pro-Trump...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/01/06/dc-protests-live-updates-trump-supporters-electoral-college-proud-boys/4126018001/)** > > Live coverage of the Washington, D.C., rallies where Trump supporters are gathering to protest as Congress counts Electoral College votes. Trump repeated his baseless fraud accusations to a crowd who used that as incentive to storm the capitol. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2021, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-section-4-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this/928647/47 "2021-01-06T19:47:06Z")
Sure. But that isnt “Trump just **instructed** a terrorist mob…” , it could be that “trump _encouraged_ a mob…” ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2021, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-section-4-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this/928647/48 "2021-01-06T19:49:28Z")
True, it’s not accurate to say he instructed them to do it. He may have incited it but that’s different. It’s like the difference between telling Joe that Fred is an asshole, or telling Joe that he needs to stab Fred for being an asshole. If Joe stabs Fred to death, only the latter action is criminal. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2021, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-section-4-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this/928647/49 "2021-01-06T20:03:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure. But that isnt “Trump just **instructed** a terrorist mob…” , it could be that “trump _encouraged_ a mob…” Oh well he just _encouraged_ them. Never mind, I was really off base there. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2021, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-section-4-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this/928647/50 "2021-01-06T20:05:22Z")
> “You don’t concede when there’s theft involved,” Trump, a Republican, said after taking the stage following a playlist blasted over loudspeakers of power ballads by Elton John and Phil Collins. “Our country has had enough and we will not take it any more.” And then after whipping the crowd into a frenzy with his lies, the coward scuttled back to the Whitehouse. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2021, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-section-4-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this/928647/51 "2021-01-06T20:08:44Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Oh well he just _encouraged_ them. Never mind, I was really off base there. Yes, you were. You accused him of literally instructing people to commit terror, rather than telling them info that might lead them to decide to do it. That is an ocean of difference. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2021, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-section-4-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this/928647/52 "2021-01-07T02:39:27Z")
Oh, people are talking: > **[Angry Republican leaders float removing Trump from office | CNN Politics](https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/06/politics/trump-capitol-impeachment-25-amendment/index.html)** > > After violent pro-Trump protesters stormed the US Capitol on Wednesday, a growing number of Republican leaders and Cabinet officials told CNN that they believe Donald Trump should be removed from office before January 20. Four of them called for the... > **[CBS News Report: Cabinet members discuss invoking 25th Amendment to remove...](https://www.kwch.com/2021/01/07/cbs-news-report-cabinet-members-discuss-invoking-25th-amendment-to-remove-president-trump/)** > > CBS News reports from Senior Foreign Affairs Correspondent Margaret Brennan that cabinet secretaries in President Donald Trump’s administration are discussing invoking the 25th Amendment to remove the president from office. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2021, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-section-4-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this/928647/53 "2021-01-07T03:58:26Z")
They had their chance to remove Trump handed to them on a silver platter, a year ago. They blew it. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2021, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-section-4-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this/928647/54 "2021-01-07T04:00:30Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Yes, you were. You accused him of literally instructing people to commit terror, rather than telling them info that might lead them to decide to do it. That is an ocean of difference. The truth is somewhere between these extremes, but closer to the former than to the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2021, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-section-4-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this/928647/55 "2021-01-07T04:44:12Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > The truth is somewhere between these extremes, but closer to the former than to the latter. I haven’t seen any indication that he specifically told anyone to do what they did. He gave them every reason to do it, and I really hope it leads to a removal via 25th amendment or impeachment. He’s clearly a danger in his position. But we’d be in a completely different situation if he actually instructed people to storm the capitol and occupy it. In that situation he might actually be guilty of sedition in a literal sense. Let’s try to be accurate here and not spread Trumpian mistruths, we’re better than that. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2021, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-section-4-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this/928647/56 "2021-01-07T04:52:31Z")
Mighty nice house you have here. It would be a shame if something happened to it. No, Trump didn’t instruct the mob to do anything. Just to stand by. And hey, he told them to obey the law and not engage in violence while he whined about how the election was stolen from him and how he loved the rioters and they are very special people. I don’t believe a criminal charge of treason or sedition would hold up in court. I wish his cabinet would invoke the 25th amendment, but I think he’s removed all the cabinet members who have a spine. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2021, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-section-4-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this/928647/57 "2021-01-07T05:03:24Z")
Yeah he’s absolutely guilty of riling up the crowd and his supposed attempts to restore order just encouraged them. He needs to face consequences for that, I don’t know what they’d be. I talked to my wife earlier about how the cabinet and Pence are reportedly discussing the possibility of invoking the 25th. Earlier today I’d think Pence didn’t have it in him, but now I think he might, after some of the things he said today and how he stood up to Trump and refused to be an obstructionist (which supposedly pissed off Trump). But recently Trump has been purging his cabinet members of anyone who pushes back on anything he demands and I don’t think there are enough of them willing to support it, so I’m not optimistic. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2021, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-section-4-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this/928647/58 "2021-01-07T05:51:30Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > But recently Trump has been purging his cabinet members of anyone who pushes back on anything he demands and I don’t think there are enough of them willing to support it, so I’m not optimistic Does not necessarily have to be cabinet members _Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide,_ ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2021, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-section-4-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this/928647/59 "2021-01-07T06:04:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Does not necessarily have to be cabinet members _Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide,_ Well that adds another ray of hope then. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carlb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carlb/32/5930_2.png) [@carlb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carlb)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2021, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-section-4-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this/928647/60 "2021-01-07T12:08:16Z")
No. Forget the 25th Amendment. If there is enough political will on the GOP side to support removal via the 25th Amendment, then there is enough political will to do it via impeachment. Impeachment sends a stronger statement, it could prevent Trump from holding office again, and it can happen a lot more quickly. Note the second paragraph of Section 4 of the 25th Amendment: > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office… There is a lot of whipsawing back and forth before the issue gets settled. **Pence, et al:** “Trump is crazy. Mike’s President now.” Pence acts as President. **Trump:** “Nuh-uh. I’m not crazy. I’m still President.” Guess what? Now Trump’s still President. **Pence, et al:** “We told you. Trump’s crazy. Here’s a letter. Mike should be President now.” Trump _is still President_ while Congress meets. …and then Congress takes God-only-knows-how-long to arrive at a decision; a decision which takes 2/3 of _both houses of Congress_ to remove via this process v. 2/3 of only the Senate to remove via impeachment. Alternatively, it takes very little time to draft up one article of impeachment (Rep. Omar says she’s got one ready to go), and there is no reason the Senate couldn’t convene, vote on that article, and have the President out on his ass in an hour or two. Sure, there’d be lots of closed door meetings and whipping of votes, but if removal via 25th Amendment seemed like a do-able option, than impeachment is even easier, and more definitive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-section-4-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this/928647.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/25th-amendment-section-4-why-is-no-one-talking-about-this/928647.md?page=4)